23 replies to this topic

[destruk]

Space Shuttle



Version: 0.9.5
Category: VPinMAME 8.x Recreations

Author(s): Emkaah

Description:
4:3 VPM Table


View File

Submitted by destruk, on Feb 27 2009, 04:01 AM

[neoblood]

This is a very nice pinball table. Emkaah did some really cool stuff with the effects and especially the ball play-field reflections. This table has a few bugs though like the ball goes through the flippers once and a while. Also I think it could use a nice background and a touchup on the lighting just a bit. If some talented guy wanted to patch this one up sometime it would make a great addition to our most played list I'm sure. This table makes me wonder why other artists don't use a similar effect on their pinballs. If Emkaah is still around I just wanted to say good job, excellent effort.

[FDSystems]

Back after some years, trying to get back my fav tables. This is the fastest playing table I knew, together with F14  Tomcat by JP.

 

A MUST HAVE> imho

[BobAlbright]

Back after some years, trying to get back my fav tables. This is the fastest playing table I knew, together with F14  Tomcat by JP.
 
A MUST HAVE> imho

Time to upgrade to VPX!

[Rajo Joey]

Back after some years, trying to get back my fav tables. This is the fastest playing table I knew, together with F14  Tomcat by JP.
 
A MUST HAVE> imho

But not this very old version.
There's a very good VPX-version.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk
Maybe you don't know the spreadsheet. There you find all existing tables with download-links.
https://docs.google..../htmlview#gid=0


Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk

Edited by Joey2001, 07 May 2020 - 05:45 AM.

[Ike Savage]

 

Back after some years, trying to get back my fav tables. This is the fastest playing table I knew, together with F14  Tomcat by JP.
 
A MUST HAVE> imho

Time to upgrade to VPX!

 

 

There's a lot of pre-VPX tables that are worth keeping and worth playing IMO.

 

Particularly for the non-cabinet crowd, I guess.

Edited by Ike Savage, 07 May 2020 - 12:07 PM.

[The Loafer]

There are, especially if the hardware isn't up to snuff, those can be fun to play and should never be removed.  In saying that, if one has semi modern PC, it can likely run VPX and the list of tables (non-original) that exist in VP8/9 but not in VPX is getting smaller and smaller... 

[FDSystems]

 

Back after some years, trying to get back my fav tables. This is the fastest playing table I knew, together with F14  Tomcat by JP.
 
A MUST HAVE> imho

But not this very old version.
There's a very good VPX-version.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk
Maybe you don't know the spreadsheet. There you find all existing tables with download-links.
https://docs.google..../htmlview#gid=0


Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk

 

 

 

Thank you for the spreadsheet.Seems it could be very usefull.

Edited by FDSystems, 08 May 2020 - 09:22 AM.

[Ike Savage]

Re: the spreadsheet,

last time I checked it hadn't been updated for about half a year.  Not sure what's up with that, but then again one can always follow up with the appropriate FB groups.

 

Also, https://vpdb.io/ has a really slick frontend by comparison, if you prefer that.  Not sure how their backend data compares to the spreadsheet, though.

 

 

There are, especially if the hardware isn't up to snuff, those can be fun to play and should never be removed.  In saying that, if one has semi modern PC, it can likely run VPX and the list of tables (non-original) that exist in VP8/9 but not in VPX is getting smaller and smaller...

 

There's also a huge number of originals that never got updated to VP9 or VPX.  Some of them are even pretty good!

 

But in terms of re-creations, I personally don't find that VPX versions are necessarily better than older versions.  Not so much a physics thing, but sometimes less is more, so to speak.

 

Now I'm not sure I've ever heard or read someone say something to this effect, but one thing I find borderline baffling is that the more graphic detail gets added to a table, it has a way of drawing attention to nearby objects of lesser quality, creating distraction.  Sort of a neverending upward spiral, if you will.

 

Sometimes older tables that aren't up to the graphics quality of newer tables (and VPX tables) are nevertheless easier on the eyes because the various PF elements are so well-matched.  Nothing in particular stands above or stands below the rest of the objects in terms of graphics quality.  IIRC JPSalas is/was a maestro at that stuff, even when he was just starting out.  Maybe it comes down to having a 'designer eye,' I don't know.

 

I guess sometimes more detail isn't necessarily a good thing, and maybe it's almost an "uncanny valley" type of phenomenon.

 

There's also the fact that sometimes a simpler table is laid out really nicely (or more authentically).  Or is just more fun to play for all these reasons combined.  But again, maybe all this is just a "me" thing. :P

 

.

 

Btw, confirm your last PM.  Did some more work on the project today.  Probably going to have to give up on the screws based on the limited options I have at home.  Still going out very seldom these days.  Feel free to follow up by PM, if necessary.  Thanks.

Edited by Ike Savage, 07 May 2020 - 06:04 PM.

[Rajo Joey]

Re: the spreadsheet,
last time I checked it hadn't been updated for about half a year.  Not sure what's up with that, but then again one can always follow up with the appropriate FB groups.

The spreadsheet was updated every few days since a long time. There is nothing better to find tables, backglasses and so on.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk

[Ike Savage]

 

Re: the spreadsheet,
last time I checked it hadn't been updated for about half a year.  Not sure what's up with that, but then again one can always follow up with the appropriate FB groups.

The spreadsheet was updated every few days since a long time. There is nothing better to find tables, backglasses and so on.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk

 

Maybe we're talking about a different spreadsheet, then.

 

I'm seeing "last updated 23-05-2019":

https://docs.google....t#gid=893918012

[Rajo Joey]

 

Re: the spreadsheet,
last time I checked it hadn't been updated for about half a year.  Not sure what's up with that, but then again one can always follow up with the appropriate FB groups.

The spreadsheet was updated every few days since a long time. There is nothing better to find tables, backglasses and so on.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk
 

Maybe we're talking about a different spreadsheet, then.
 
I'm seeing "last updated 23-05-2019":
https://docs.google....t#gid=893918012

Yes, you are on a old version. Take a look at the v3.5.
Click on my link a few posts above
Last updated 07.05.2020.

Gesendet von meinem CMR-W09 mit Tapatalk

Edited by Joey2001, 07 May 2020 - 07:59 PM.

[The Loafer]

Re: the spreadsheet,

last time I checked it hadn't been updated for about half a year.  Not sure what's up with that, but then again one can always follow up with the appropriate FB groups.

 

Also, https://vpdb.io/ has a really slick frontend by comparison, if you prefer that.  Not sure how their backend data compares to the spreadsheet, though.

 

 

There are, especially if the hardware isn't up to snuff, those can be fun to play and should never be removed.  In saying that, if one has semi modern PC, it can likely run VPX and the list of tables (non-original) that exist in VP8/9 but not in VPX is getting smaller and smaller...

 

There's also a huge number of originals that never got updated to VP9 or VPX.  Some of them are even pretty good!

 

But in terms of re-creations, I personally don't find that VPX versions are necessarily better than older versions.  Not so much a physics thing, but sometimes less is more, so to speak.

 

Now I'm not sure I've ever heard or read someone say something to this effect, but one thing I find borderline baffling is that the more graphic detail gets added to a table, it has a way of drawing attention to nearby objects of lesser quality, creating distraction.  Sort of a neverending upward spiral, if you will.

 

Sometimes older tables that aren't up to the graphics quality of newer tables (and VPX tables) are nevertheless easier on the eyes because the various PF elements are so well-matched.  Nothing in particular stands above or stands below the rest of the objects in terms of graphics quality.  IIRC JPSalas is/was a maestro at that stuff, even when he was just starting out.  Maybe it comes down to having a 'designer eye,' I don't know.

 

I guess sometimes more detail isn't necessarily a good thing, and maybe it's almost an "uncanny valley" type of phenomenon.

 

There's also the fact that sometimes a simpler table is laid out really nicely (or more authentically).  Or is just more fun to play for all these reasons combined.  But again, maybe all this is just a "me" thing.

 

.

 

Btw, confirm your last PM.  Did some more work on the project today.  Probably going to have to give up on the screws based on the limited options I have at home.  Still going out very seldom these days.  Feel free to follow up by PM, if necessary.  Thanks.

 

Although I get what you are saying, overall I don't agree.  I know what you mean about one art asset being blurry can be distracting but try playing a table FULL of blurry textures on a 4K playfield and let me tell, nothing screams more "abort, abort" than that lol.  If you are comparing the same pin from VP7/8/9 to another same pin that has had a graphic update on its way to VPX, I've yet to see a version that falls to "less is more" or "graphics are so good, they are distracting".  Perhaps I misunderstand. I mean there are always exceptions but when someone says " I personally don't find that VPX versions are necessarily better than older versions", that's a pretty generic comment! 

 

So in saying that, name one table that exists in VP8/9 that also exists in VPX that you feel falls into your description .   There are a few VPX tables that might fall into your category but the only ones I can think of would date back to my old "VPX beta table thread" where most of these were just quick conversions and really were "betas" in all sense of the word.   I also personally don't see how someone can go into a VP8/9 vs VPX discussion and say "well, let's not look at the physics".  I mean how can you not? that's the biggest deal breaker, there's no more fake angles off the flippers.  Everything on the table can now affect the ball differently depending on the material, etc.

 

Well we are all different but I also wonder right now, just how many VPX tables you've tried and what are the specs on your PC?

 

Your last bit: I can confirm I'll take it back without the screws please; all I ask is you package it well

Edited by The Loafer, 07 May 2020 - 08:58 PM.

[Ike Savage]

@Joey2001,

Thank you, sir!

 

 

@Loaf,

I guess that's a generic statement without context, but I did try to provide context.  Again, I think JPSalas' early work is a pretty good example of what I mean, i.e. well-matched, consistent graphics assets, not necessarily as hyper-detailed as his (and others') later efforts.  In terms of ancient originals, Robbway's, "Misaligned Cow Ventures," Pinman's, Jeff Block's, Tim Moffett's, and even Mitchell's stuff demonstrated this quality pretty well, I think.  Typically, the different areas of such tables formed a sort of pleasing visual harmony.

 

But I'll give you another specific example that gets at the 'less is more' idea-- that would be Randy's ancient "Top Speed" table, which was bundled in to early VP versions IIRC.  It was a ROM-less remake of Williams "High Speed," I think.  The graphics design was very basic of course, but it played nicely, and I thought the visual appeal was rather pleasant, actually.  In playing the table, one's eyes tended to follow what one needed to follow without distraction.  After re-checking that one out recently, I tried someone's VP8 or VP9 official re-creaton, and was struck by how borderline annoying all the extra art was.  Visually, it made focusing on things more difficult for me.  A VPX version would probably have made that situation even worse(!)

 

So that''s an extreme example obviously, but I think it gets at what I'm talking about pretty well.  It just so happens I prefer clean design, and sometimes simple is better for me.  For example, a VP ramp or habitrail that looks clean can be preferable to one with wonderful transparency features, or has beautifully shiny metal details.  Somehow an upgraded ramp can be downright distracting.  Am I sitting here, gazing at the pixels, or am I trying to enjoy the game?  And the more I admire those pixels, the more I'll typically think "ooh, this part over here could be improved a little... and that one... and that one."  Again, I can't help but wonder if there's an "uncanny valley" effect going on.

 

But for sure, this stuff probably illustrates pretty decisively that I'm approaching VP from a very different place than you, and maybe most people here and in the cabinet scene.  Over here I'm only playing in 1024x768 mode with modest graphic settings turned on such that the tables play smoothly on my thoroughly mediocre, oldish desktop.  That said, I'm really not sure I'd be any more interested in these games if I had a beefier system.  Since this stuff is likely never going to approach what it feels like for me to play actual pinball, at a certain point all the bells and whistles just kinda leave me cold.  I'd rather just focus on an enjoyable gaming experience and leave the collector side / hyperrealism side to others.  This is my game-preference-aesthetic in general though, and I certainly do not ask you to agree with it.

 

Oh, but the physics upgrades are awesome, though.  No argument there.  I still haven't played a tonne of VPX games, but I love some of the improved flipper effects, flippers being surely the most important of all the PF objects.

 

Btw, I even did a slight mod upgrade of an old ~VP7 Taito dos Brasil game recently.  The PF graphics were muddier than mud personified, even with my slight improvements. I also made sure to find one of the better VPX versions, with really crisp graphics and all that stuff.  Played a couple games of each and was left scratching my head as to why I had more fun playing the ancient version.  Hence, grist for my post above.

 

Well, there's a ramble and a half if you like.  Sorry, I can't refund your lost time, though!

 

 

EDIT: upon further reflection, it might also be that modern games tend to be pretty gaudy / gonzo by their very design natures, and for me that stuff works a lot better in person, in an actual arcade.  The clownishness makes sense, there.  But as simulations on my monitor / projector?  Not so much.

 

The experience of a good game is more important to me than piling on the bells and whistles, I guess.  I'm also a big fan of the 8-bit / pixel-style game genres, so again I think that helps show where my preferences lie.

Edited by Ike Savage, 07 May 2020 - 10:22 PM.

[Armyaviation]

VPX VPX VPX guys!!

[robertms]

I'm also a big fan of the 8-bit / pixel-style game genres, so again I think that helps show where my preferences lie.

 

Yup. 

[The Loafer]

Nic:  Most of your post is clear, you prefer basic designed tables to the modern stuff, nothing wrong with that.  I kind of go through phases myself where I will go on a streak and just play EM's or 80's Bally's, etc.  So there's a ebb and flow to my personal preference depending on current mood.

 

But... what the majority of what you state is not a VP8/9 vs VP10 argument nor is it a pincab vs desktop argument … and let's not even go to the new "desktop vs pincab vs VR" argument either.  If you feel that VPX tends to have more modern games then VP8/9 I'd say go back into that time machine and check out the posts back in the day about how VPM was ruining VP.  This has NOTHING to do with the engine, just what constitutes a popular pin for the majority vs your/our personal preference and that is A-OK.  If you find it's easier to find the pin of your preferred style looking at the VP8/9 section, ok but you need to up your game as far as searching better.

 

Having a better PC wouldn't make you like modern tables more, but there are quite a few of those older basic designed tables in existence in VPX.  For example, Loserman's tables, he's done a "couple" of tables in VPX that are based on old Gottlieb EM's so very straight and uncluttered designs.  Because of VPX, you like the more daytime look?  Or how about a darker night time lights glowing look?  Why just adjust the day/night slider.  physics improvement as obvious (you acknowledge that) … and now because of recently added features to VPX like much better and realistic saucer physics,I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up upgrading a "couple" of his releases to include these improvements.  So if you had a better PC perhaps you'd like VPX more if you just stick to the types of tables you like?  I don't know but I know if I had your PC I wouldn't even bother with VPX, but it's not because of some notion of "preference".  Out of curiosity, exactly what are the specs of your PC?

 

It seems VPF only shows last 10 upload for a given author so this link is to vpinball.com, so here's some help for searching:  

[Armyaviation]

I am actually working with loserman to rebuild a lot of Itchigos 1960 tables now. I am on my EM kick.

I do find it insane that we have to sell VPX over VP8and 9....and oh shit, did he say VP7??? Is that even a thing anymore

[Ike Savage]

I am actually working with loserman to rebuild a lot of Itchigos 1960 tables now. I am on my EM kick.

I do find it insane that we have to sell VPX over VP8and 9....and oh shit, did he say VP7??? Is that even a thing anymore

 
Did who say VP7?  Did I?  I think I might have mentioned it somewhere above.  But yeah, VP7's always going to be a thing because it was a pretty key development point in the VP lineage.
 
Also, there just might be some classic originals that weren't updated to work past VP7.  Stuff like Scott Bermel's Mario Tee Shot or what have you.  Every once in a while I find something that doesn't work even in VP8 (not due to a plugin issue), and it's not always clear why, unless you remember where VBscripting might have changed significance in VP.
 
Anyway yeah, if there's a presumption that everything pre-VPX is necessarily worthless, that's just something I'll never be able to get on board with.  For example, there's loads of fascinating design / art pieces (Sphere's tables would be a good example) that have very little to do with differences in technical capabilities compared to today and way back when.  Point is-- VP state of the art may be boiled down to nothing but a series of linear advancements, and that's probably fair, but the works of VP aren't quite like that as I see it.  That's what happens when the aesthetics of design and even genuine art are involved.  We could be talking about almost any tech genre at this point.
 
Btw, even the featured table in this thread, (Emkaah's Space Shuttle from way back in 2004 IIRC), is just amazing, and I seriously doubt I'd have any more fun playing even the latest and greatest versions of such a table.  The feel, ballflow, and layout are really enjoyable to me for whatever reasons, and that's a real hit or miss feeling for me when playing VPX tables.  For reasons previously described.  Now sure, tables like this are indeed almost certainly the exception, and that's fine.  But I don't have a problem running older VP versions to enjoy a game I really like.  I mean, I've been involved in the scene (off and on) going on twenty years now, and being able to enjoy older stuff is probably a lot less baffling for someone like me, compared to someone who came in the past ~ten years..

 

 

@Loaf,

I think you're kind of vaguely getting a handle on where I'm coming from.  I've tried to describe a number of factors that go in to this for me, and I note that the first thing you're saying is 'so you prefer basic-designed tables'.  Okay.

 

At the end of the day, I have to say it again-- I think this stuff comes down to differences between what we're looking for in VP.  Now I don't know when I'll get a permanent cab setup done, and I don't know when I might dabble in VR play, but I'd like to think that I'd thoroughly enjoy both those things.  At some point I'll probably upgrade this old, uh... 3.2ghz i5-3470 machine, at which time I look forward to being able to crank up my settings on the more demanding tables.  And check out more SAM games I never got a chance to play in real life.  At the same time, I can't imagine not being able to appreciate a bunch of the early VP stuff that, like art and design, may never be seen again in the VP world.  It's not a contest as I see it, and I'm perfectly fine keeping a foot in different worlds.

[Ike Savage]

Actually, let me say one more thing:

 

VP is never going to be about the mere state of the tech side for me, because it was already far more than that going back years and years. 

 

In addition to the art and design creations already mentioned, for me it was about the driving personalities back in the day, and the behavior of the VP community, such as it was.  It's about crowd behavior and what people come for in scenes like this.  It's about the lead programmers and the table designers; what drove them; what worked well and what went wrong.  It's about mysteries and frustrations, how we handled them, and what we learned from the whole shebang.

 

So yeah, there's plenty for me to enjoy across the entire VP works and timeline.  History, human behavior, even some anthropology, one might say.  That stuff doesn't necessarily relate to the actual games in obvious ways, but it's there in the fabric, and it would pretty much be impossible not for it to have had an influence on what's going on today.

 

But in terms of specific games, sometimes I'll play a crazy old table full of ridiculous ideas, but also see some truly innovative ideas that were never really followed up on in VP.  That really intrigues me, like a "what if" scenario.  Sometimes it might be a Wrenchien table, for example, and I'll smile, and think about how I remembered him, and maybe have some insight in to the how's and why's of his design choices, based on what I saw of his personality.  And of course, that's hardly a Wrenchien thing.  It applies to anyone doing creative works, even if they're 'only' VP re-creations.

 

So all that's just sort of some extra information in surplus of what I've already stated above.  In short, there are many, many aspects of VP for me, and to boil them all down to any particular summary or POV is pretty much a fool's errand as I see it.  Guess ahm jess too durn curious, plus ah fond the whole thing so durn inneresting, as The Stranger might say.