103 replies to this topic

[blur]

EDIT 22.01.2011:
OK guys here on start of this conversation i will put latest news about my updated core.vbs and instructions how to use it and link to latest version, something like i did with FPLaunch.
For now latest version of core.vbs with nudge and tilt sounds is 3.33. You can download it here (link changed from megaupload to mediafire):
http://www.mediafire...nuz7ydt0rbp2lrl
Be sure to put mp3 sounds in vpinmame music dir.

Rob's tuned version: http://www.vpforums....a...st&id=11567

Important features of new core.vbs are:
- filter time - period after nudge during which no new nudges are accepted from any direction
- return force - recoil force is a percent of original nudge force and acts in opposite angle
- nudge interval - period during which nudges are counted and if there is too many nudges table is tilted, after every nudge interval nudge count is reduced a little so that you can nudge again
- front nudge direction is changed so that ball goes down instead of up (it will go up only if it bounces of something) - which is much more real than unconditional up movement
- nudge sound - whenever you nudge you'll hear solenoid sound so that you know vp accepted your nudge
- tilt sound - whenever tilt occurs you will hear tilt sound, even if table doesn't support it, on some table tilt sound will even come before tilt as a warning
- you can have shake effect on all tables - just uncomment startshake command - beware - startshake causes problems on some configurations

More info on latest version for now can be found here (it will also be transferred to this post):
http://www.vpforums....s...st&p=100739
Few ideas for next versions are:
- to implement preferred angles and preferred strength, so whenever someone calls nudge from some angle i conclude - aha - table author wants left nudge, i want all left nudges to be from an angle of 270, and strength of 1.3, and then i call nudge 270 1.3 regardless of his angle and strength. This way you can tune all tables at once. Of course you can leave preferred angle and strength empty and it will not be used. Everything will work like before. My core.vbs was always old users friendly - meaning if you don't want to change anything you just leave all settings on default.
- post your comments on the end of discussion

__________________________
Here is the original first post so that you can follow discussion from the beginning:

In this post http://www.hyperspin...mp;postcount=25 on hyperspin i have a new version of core.vbs (3.33?).

Actually it is 3.32-1 from this site, updated with nudge filtering from melon and jpsalas i think and some other additions from me.

Additions include:
- increased filter time (tiempofiltro) from 100 to 500 milisec. and nudge interval (time after which table forgets previous nudges) from 70 to 500 msec. These values are experimental and we can set them to whatever is best for all. (default in 3.32-1 was no filtering and 1 sec nudge interval)
- totally disabled nudging during tiempofiltro time (changed mcount2 = 0 to mcount2 = 1 in DoNudge procedure) cause some cab users reported that they get many nudges every time with this script
- changed front nudge so that ball goes down instead of up. It will however go up if it bounces of something.
- added COUNTER EFFECT on all nudges - when you nudge from left nudge is applied from left and then after few miliseconds from the opposite direction with 70% of force - so the ball goes left and then returns a little.
- added STARTSHAKE to initialization - so now all tables will have shake effect even if author did not put startshake in the table. If you want to remove it just comment our startshake line

You can get core.vbs from the link above (it is in the code box), and try it and tell me what you think.
Maybe someone with permissions can attach it here.
All parameters and times in there are optional - we can change them if you don't like current settings.
For this code to work table has to be vpm table and has to use DoNudge OR it can leave nudging by default (no event on nudge keys) - then DoNudge will be invoked by default.

I have another idea - to put somewhere sound named nudge and tilt and to play them on every nudge or tilt, but to leave possibility to users to put some other sounds and to table authors to put sound with same name in table file so that it is executed instead.

Here is only nudge class code which is the only part of code that is changed:

CODE

class cvpmNudge
    Private mCount, mCount2, mReturnCount, mReturnDir, mReturnForce, mSensitivity, mNudgeTimer, mSlingBump, mForce
    Public TiltSwitch
    Public TiempoFiltro

    Private Sub Class_Initialize
        mCount2 = 0 : TiempoFiltro = 500 : mReturnCount = 0 : mReturnDir = 0 : mReturnForce = 0
        mCount = 0 : TiltSwitch = 0 : mSensitivity = 5 : vpmTimer.AddResetObj Me
        StartShake
    End sub

    Private Property Let NeedUpdate(aEnabled) : vpmTimer.EnableUpdate Me, False, aEnabled : End Property

    Public Property Let TiltObj(aSlingBump)
        Dim ii
        ReDim mForce(vpmSetArray(mSlingBump, aSlingBump))
        For ii = 0 To UBound(mForce)
            If TypeName(mSlingBump(ii)) = "Bumper" Then mForce(ii) = mSlingBump(ii).Force
            If TypeName(mSlingBump(ii)) = "Wall" Then mForce(ii) = mSlingBump(ii).SlingshotStrength
        Next
    End Property

    Public Property Let Sensitivity(aSens) : mSensitivity = (10-aSens)+1 : End property

    Public Sub DoNudge(ByVal aDir, ByVal aForce)
        if mCount2 > 0 and mCount2 < TiempoFiltro\conTimerPulse then exit sub
        mcount2 = 1
        mReturnCount = 1
        if aDir < 20 or aDir > 340 Then aDir = aDir + 180
        aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
        Nudge aDir, aForce
        mReturnDir = aDir + 180
        mReturnForce = aForce * 0.7
        If TiltSwitch = 0 Then Exit Sub ' If no switch why care
        mCount = mCount + aForce * 1.2
        If mCount > mSensitivity + 10 Then mCount = mSensitivity + 10
        If mCount >= mSensitivity Then vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch
        NeedUpdate = True
    End sub

    Public Sub Update
        mCount2 = mCount2 + 1
        if mReturnCount > 0 Then mReturnCount = mReturnCount + 1
        if mReturnCount > 5 Then mReturnCount = 0 : Nudge mReturnDir, mReturnForce
        If mCount > 0 Then
            mNudgeTimer = mNudgeTimer + 1
            If mNudgeTimer > 500\conTimerPulse Then
                If mCount > mSensitivity+1 Then mCount = mCount - 1 : vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch
                mCount = mCount - 1 : mNudgeTimer = 0
            End If
        Else
            mCount = 0 : mCount2=0 : NeedUpdate = False
        End If
    End Sub

    Public Sub Reset : mCount = 0 : End Sub

    Public Sub SolGameOn(aEnabled)
        Dim obj, ii
        If aEnabled Then
            ii = 0
            For Each obj In mSlingBump
                If TypeName(obj) = "Bumper" Then obj.Force = mForce(ii)
                If TypeName(obj) = "Wall" Then obj.SlingshotStrength = mForce(ii)
                ii = ii + 1
            Next
        Else
            For Each obj In mSlingBump
                If TypeName(obj) = "Bumper" Then obj.Force = 0
                If TypeName(obj) = "Wall" Then obj.SlingshotStrength = 0
            Next
        End If
    End Sub
End Class

Edited by blur, 05 July 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Rawd]

Very cool Blur. Thanks for this! I will test it out later...

[unclewilly]

one question? this means we no longer need the nudge routine. and unless it is made standard it won't work for all users?

[blur]

i don't understand the question
you can use whatever nudge routine you have as long as it calls DoNudge in the end (and not directly Nudge).
no one has to make this routine standard - it is standard already - it is called if you don't have any tilt key event, and most tables do use DoNudge, only some use Nudge directly

if you call nudge directly you are skipping this script and it will have no infuence on your table

if you do whatever before you call DoNudge it will be executed so all Noah/jpsalas/bob nudge functions are possible and can coexist
but if noah or jpsalas has a nudge function that calls weak nudge right after the first one, that nudge will be filtered with the filter
if noah/jpsalas sends a weaker nudge but after tiempo filtro it will be executed unchanged.
also if you use noah script that sends weaker nudges on top of the table - they will also be executed weaker - ie unchanged

this function doesn't change much, just:
filters few miliseconds to make ALL double nudging devices work perfectly
does counter force about which noah wrote many times that it should be implemented
changes front nudge direction - because front nudge sends ball UP instead DOWN like every normal pinball does
adds shaking effect

Edited by blur, 04 April 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

Interesting ...

For those of you who want to try it out, it's attached below.

Feedback encouraged.

Attached Files

•  core.zip   19.67KB   91 downloads

[blur]

Tnx!

[StevOz]

It's a slight improvement that goes someway to correct the currently flawed VP9 nudge, which no amount of scripting can fix and goes to prove that the current VP9 nudge is indeed flawed. Whilst there is a slight counter nudge effect in real world pinball physics, in no way is it near 70% of the original nudge, although such a value is needed in an attempt to correct the currently flawed VP9 nudging.

Edited by StevOz, 18 January 2011 - 11:49 PM.

[blur]

In vp8 it was 100%, now it is nowhere near 70%? Is it below or above?

Smaller you make it, it is easier to take the ball wherever you want.

Even with 70% it is easy to move the ball around.

But everybody is free to experiment and suggest thresholds:
for this counter force percent
for time after which the counter force is applied (smaller the time harder to nudge cause ball moves less) now it is five pulser tics, if i put it to 1 or 2 vp usually skips that second nudge
tiempo filtro - filter interval - no nudging at all during this interval - currently 500 ms - important to be big for trigger happy tilt bobs on cabs to operate without tilts
nudging interval - interval after which nudges count starts to go down (to avoid tilt) - also 500 ms - bigger it is - it is easier to make tilt

Edited by blur, 19 January 2011 - 12:40 AM.

[StevOz]

In VP8, the ball didn't move upon nudging, especially mid playfield and the table moved as it should, the table moves under the ball, the ball does not change trajectory unless it actually comes in contact with a playfield object.

The ball movement was added to VP9 for cabinet usage and incorrectly implemented, in an attempt to give the illusion of the ball staying on course, whilst the cabinet was nudged moving the cabinet. This is why the VP9 nudge is completely flawed for desktop usage and partially flawed for cabinet usage.

It is true that the VP8 nudge could perhaps use some work with the return table movement being reduced in velocity to effect a lesser counter nudge, ideally this return velocity and timing should be adjustable in the script to allow for shaker motor effects. As for the VP9 nudge it really needs two different types of nudge, an improved VP8 nudge for desktop usage as mentioned and a reworking of the current VP9 nudge system for cabinet usage.

Edited by StevOz, 19 January 2011 - 02:14 AM.

[blur]

Here is few more explanations to uw's question. Some examples how this works on some real life tables:

unclewily's pinball pool:
this table uses DoNUdge with JPS/noah nudge script with delay time of 20-25 pulser tics, usual nudge strength is 1, during delay time it goes slowly from 0 to 1, 20 - 25 tics is approximately 1 sec, so after one sec nudge force is again full, after half sec nudge force is 0.5
when used with my new core.vbs first nudge will act normally (only with counter force and fixed direction for front nudge)
then for tiempofiltro (def. now half a sec) no nudge will be accepted, although script could send something
then after half a sec new nudge will be sent with force 0.5 and it will be accepted and executed
if you nudge all the time you will never get out of the delay time and get good nudge response

all in all in this table nudge is very small and realistic and it is hard to get tilt

second example:
Pinbot from uw - all is same as above

amazing spiderman 2009 6digit mod from ta i think:
doesn't use donudge, uses nudge function directly with it's own tilting count - not affected with this script, can be changed though

amazing spiderman 2009 vp8 (bob's vp8 table):
there is no any nudge key event so DoNudge is used by default with all additions from core.vbs
I don't know what is default for angle and strength, but nudge is stronger then on uw tables
this is vp8 table and this behaviour is tipical for all vp8 tables without nudgekey event when they are executed in vp9


new table:
there is no vpm so core.vbs is not invoked.
nudge command is used directly

BALLY - TWILIGHT ZONE - MEGAPIN - VP9 - V1.3
on key press DoNudge is invoked directly with force 3 (very hard nudge) so all new features from core.vbs are used
nudge is very hard and it is easy to tilt

and so on

Edited by blur, 19 January 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[blur]

Few pointers for tuning, so that you know what to change and where:

CODE

class cvpmNudge
...
    Private Sub Class_Initialize
        mCount2 = 0 : TiempoFiltro = 500 ******this is where you set filter time****** : mReturnCount = 0 : mReturnDir = 0 : mReturnForce = 0
        mCount = 0 : TiltSwitch = 0 : mSensitivity = 5 : vpmTimer.AddResetObj Me
        StartShake ******this is where you enable/disable shaking******
    End sub
...
    Public Sub DoNudge(ByVal aDir, ByVal aForce)
        if mCount2 > 0 and mCount2 < TiempoFiltro\conTimerPulse then exit sub
        mcount2 = 1
        mReturnCount = 1
        if aDir < 20 or aDir > 340 Then aDir = aDir + 180
        aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
        Nudge aDir, aForce
        mReturnDir = aDir + 180
        mReturnForce = aForce * 0.7 ******return force******
...
    Public Sub Update
        mCount2 = mCount2 + 1
        if mReturnCount > 0 Then mReturnCount = mReturnCount + 1
        if mReturnCount > 5 ******after how many tics do we apply counter force****** Then mReturnCount = 0 : Nudge mReturnDir, mReturnForce
        If mCount > 0 Then
            mNudgeTimer = mNudgeTimer + 1
            If mNudgeTimer > 500 ******nudge counter interval****** \conTimerPulse Then
                If mCount > mSensitivity+1 Then mCount = mCount - 1 : vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch
                mCount = mCount - 1 : mNudgeTimer = 0
            End If
        Else
            mCount = 0 : mCount2=0 : NeedUpdate = False
        End If
    End Sub
...

Edited by blur, 19 January 2011 - 11:57 AM.

[StevOz]

In vp8 it was 100%, now it is nowhere near 70%? Is it below or above?

Oh and for the record this statement is completely incorrect, whilst the table does swing back with perhaps 100% of the original nudge force in VP8, unless the ball actually comes in contact with a playfield object, this counter nudge effect amounts to 0%, which is the case mostly.

[blur]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table is moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Edited by blur, 20 January 2011 - 09:48 AM.

[007]

Just to be a smart arse: Inertia isn't a force, hence cannot "act" on the ball.

[unclewilly]

Here is few more explanations to uw's question. Some examples how this works on some real life tables:

unclewily's pinball pool:
this table uses DoNUdge with JPS/noah nudge script with delay time of 20-25 pulser tics, usual nudge strength is 1, during delay time it goes slowly from 0 to 1, 20 - 25 tics is approximately 1 sec, so after one sec nudge force is again full, after half sec nudge force is 0.5
when used with my new core.vbs first nudge will act normally (only with counter force and fixed direction for front nudge)
then for tiempofiltro (def. now half a sec) no nudge will be accepted, although script could send something
then after half a sec new nudge will be sent with force 0.5 and it will be accepted and executed
if you nudge all the time you will never get out of the delay time and get good nudge response

all in all in this table nudge is very small and realistic and it is hard to get tilt

second example:
Pinbot from uw - all is same as above

amazing spiderman 2009 6digit mod from ta i think:
doesn't use donudge, uses nudge function directly with it's own tilting count - not affected with this script, can be changed though

amazing spiderman 2009 vp8 (bob's vp8 table):
there is no any nudge key event so DoNudge is used by default with all additions from core.vbs
I don't know what is default for angle and strength, but nudge is stronger then on uw tables
this is vp8 table and this behaviour is tipical for all vp8 tables without nudgekey event when they are executed in vp9


new table:
there is no vpm so core.vbs is not invoked.
nudge command is used directly

BALLY - TWILIGHT ZONE - MEGAPIN - VP9 - V1.3
on key press DoNudge is invoked directly with force 3 (very hard nudge) so all new features from core.vbs are used
nudge is very hard and it is easy to tilt

and so on

Thanks for this blur. sorry my question wasn't that clear.
so using the new core along with the jp/noah script routine makes the nudge work well
that way it will still work if people don't have the new core. thanks for doing this

[StevOz]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Then why does the ball not only move with the VP9 nudge and it does, it also changes trajectory, even when it never comes in contact with anything, yes it does this against the laws of physics, this is why it cannot be correct via any scripting, it's fundamentally broken you see.

Edited by StevOz, 19 January 2011 - 09:56 PM.

[Rawd]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Then why does the ball not only move with the VP9 nudge and it does, it also changes trajectory, even when it never comes in contact with anything, yes it does this against the laws of physics, this is why it cannot be correct via any scripting, it's fundamentally broken you see.

You mean when the ball is moving across the playfield at 20 miles an hour, and stops and turns around because of a nudge? Ya.. That is a bit unrealistic. It didn't do that in VP8?

[StevOz]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Then why does the ball not only move with the VP9 nudge and it does, it also changes trajectory, even when it never comes in contact with anything, yes it does this against the laws of physics, this is why it cannot be correct via any scripting, it's fundamentally broken you see.

You mean when the ball is moving across the playfield at 20 miles an hour, and stops and turns around because of a nudge? Ya.. That is a bit unrealistic. It didn't do that in VP8?

I didn't say that, you did, though it does alter change trajectory by a greater degree then is physically possible mid playfield without coming in contact with anything, also without the counter nudge scripting you can nudge a ball all the way up the shooter lane, that just should not be possible in the first instance, even with counter nudge scripting it may be possible.

Edited by StevOz, 19 January 2011 - 10:25 PM.

[Rawd]

??? No! Don't look at the ball. Forget the ball. When nudge is applied table is moved in one direction.
When table moved back - it is counter force.
Since table did get back to its starting position that means you have counter force which is 100%.

And now the ball - nudge force is never applied to the ball - force is applied to the table.
Ball only has inertia and friction forces acting on it.
Inertia is trying to keep it in same position and friction is moving the ball with the table.
The fact that you see ball moving is not because you acted on ball - it's because you acted on table which moved, and inertia acted on ball and kept it still.

Then why does the ball not only move with the VP9 nudge and it does, it also changes trajectory, even when it never comes in contact with anything, yes it does this against the laws of physics, this is why it cannot be correct via any scripting, it's fundamentally broken you see.

You mean when the ball is moving across the playfield at 20 miles an hour, and stops and turns around because of a nudge? Ya.. That is a bit unrealistic. It didn't do that in VP8?

I didn't say that, you did, though it does alter change trajectory by a greater degree then is physically possible mid playfield without coming in contact with anything, also without the counter nudge scripting you can nudge a ball all the way up the shooter lane, that just should not be possible in the first instance.

I wasn't arguing. I have seen the ball change directory when moving fast. I thought that's what you were talking about, and I agreed with you. Then I asked if it did that in VP8? (I have never used VP8)

Edited by Rawd, 19 January 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[unclewilly]

Why is it that any attempt to try and work around a flaw in the new vp has to lead to a debate about how it never should have been changed in the first place and it is all because of the cabinet users.
Get the f@%k over it already.
Guess what? it did get changed by a company who licensed the software, and they also added a bunch of new features, until the current devs get a chance to look at it, it's gonna be the same, so what is the big debate over. Blur and jp are simply trying to peovide a method in which to make it more correct, not absolutely correct, but closer. If you think vp8 nudging is real world accurate you must have never played a real table.
If the nudging is that bad, just use vp8 and there won't be any problem for you.
harping on the issue in every thread that even mentions the word nudging is not helping.
At least this is a step to make it slightly more realistic until the devs have a chance to look at the code.