16 replies to this topic

[fuzzel]

Since VPX beta is out we have a problem with the egg shaped ball in fullscreen mode. The reason for this is that VPX uses a 3D mesh for the ball instead of an image as it was in VP9/8. While I was trying to improve the camera handling in VPX and tested a couple of different ways on how to setup a good POV in fullscreen mode I realized that everything is already available in VPX even in VP9

I figured out that the backdrop settings used today are all wrong even on VP9 tables but because the ball is an image in VP9 and together with the anti-strech options there was no need to improve the way to find correct camera settings. This thread should solve this especially for VPX but you can use the same steps in VP9 too.

 

1. As a first step disable any anti-stretch option in the video settings and set it to "Stretch Ball with Table".
2. Load a fullscreen table and change the backdrop values to Inclination: 10, FOV: 10, Layback: 35, X/Y/Z Scale to 1.0 and X/Y/Z Offset to 0.0
3. Temporarly set the Min/Max Slope to 0.0 so you can place balls on the playfield
4. Start the camera mode
5. Start the debug mode (by pressing Q and select Debug window) and activate "Throw Balls in player" and place 1 ball on the upper half of the playfield, 1 ball on the middle and 1 ball near to the flippers. These balls should be your reference if you overdo some settings and become an egg or squatched.
6. Now increase the inclination a bit but not too much I would say you won't need an inclination over 25
7. Next increase FOV just a bit but again not too much. I guess you won't need a FOV which is over 30 but 45 should be the absolute limit
8. Increase the layback. This one depends on the inclination you set in step 6. If you increase the inclination too much you won't need a high layback. My highest layback angle was 51 but most of the time it's around 30-40
9. Next big step is the scaling. Try to scale both values about the same amount. This step highly depends on the table's aspect ratio. Let's assume that a cabinet playfield screen is 16:9. The best aspect ratio for a table would be 16:9 or 1:1.7 of course. But if you recreate existing tables you won't have this ratio. The golden rule is to use an aspect ratio of around 1:2.0 if it's higher say 1:2.3 you have to scale the Y-axis too much to fill the screen and the whole table looks squashed (and the balls too ) One good example is Sharkey's Shootout. This table has a ratio of 1:2.3 and you shouldn't scale the Y-axis too much because there isn't much room for scaling the X-axis. The only solution for those tables is to accept a border on the left/right side on the screen.
10. Last part is the offset adjustment. Normally you only need to move the X-axis a bit depending on the settings used in the other steps above

 

Verdict: The egg shaped ball comes from multiple facts: depending on the inclination, FOV, layback and scaling the perspective distortion produces this view. Especially FOV and layback are two critical settings here. There are tables out there which uses FOV of around 90° that is much too high. The FOV is the vertical FOV and the horizontal FOV is derived from it. A FOV of 90° or 50° means you would normally see more elements around the playfield but for a cabinet setup you don't want that. You will notice that a starting FOV of 10° will produce a quite good perspective view and it doesn't stretch the ball towards the playfield glass.

 

One other aspect to keep in mind: If you place elements around the table in the editor VP will calculate a different camera position then without these elements. VP calculates bounding boxes for each element in the editor and try to find the min/max values for X, Y and Z. Based on these min/max values and the backdrop settings the camera position is calculated. So my advice is not to place elements around the main playfield

 

Here are some backdrop settings I found with this approach:

 

Sharkey's Shootout:

Inclination: 18  FOV: 5  Layback: 39 XY-Rotation: 270  X-Scale: 1.05  Y-Scale: 1.31 Z-Scale: 1.1  X-Offset: -10

 

JP's Nascar Race:

Inclination: 21  FOV: 24  Layback: 35 XY-Rotation: 270  X-Scale: 1.1  Y-Scale: 1.3 Z-Scale: 1.2  X-Offset: 50

 

JP's WOW-Monopoly:

Inclination: 14  FOV: 22  Layback: 51 XY-Rotation: 270  X-Scale: 1.16  Y-Scale: 1.36  Z-Scale: 1.0  X-Offset: 78  Y-Offset: 6

 

Mr. & Mrs. PAC-MAN:

Inclination: 15  FOV: 2  Layback: 40 XY-Rotation: 270  X-Scale: 1.15  Y-Scale: 1.3  Z-Scale: 1.0  X-Offset: -60

Edited by fuzzel, 21 March 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[unclewilly]

This helped me out a bunch.
thanks fuzzel

[bent98]

Good info fuzzle. You should make a master thread for all tips for table builders as these individuals threads tend to get lost.

[fuzzel]

You mean to pin the thread? Don't know how to do that

[Pinball999]

Many thanks Fuzzel.

I really appreciate the efforts you make to solve the egg ball issue, and provide us with guidelines for the adjustments.

I've had a try at your settings for Nascar, and unfortunately they don't work for me.

Recently, when changing the POV, I'm trying to keep the ramps as parallel as possible to the tv side, and this is not possible with an inclinaison around 18 or 20.

 

That's what I have for Nascar.

9,33, 69, 270, 1.1, 1.3, 1.1, 50

Yep, these settings don't help at all for the egg ball issue.. but that's what looks the more natural to me

In the end, I guess users will need to decide if they prefer to go for table perspective or ball shape.

 

BTW, some time ago someone asked if it would be possible to have x/y ball ratio adjustable per table. Is there a chance to have it implemented?

[hauntfreaks]

Fuzzel.... wow those setting are perfect... thank you!!

[fuzzel]

Many thanks Fuzzel.
I really appreciate the efforts you make to solve the egg ball issue, and provide us with guidelines for the adjustments.
I've had a try at your settings for Nascar, and unfortunately they don't work for me.
Recently, when changing the POV, I'm trying to keep the ramps as parallel as possible to the tv side, and this is not possible with an inclinaison around 18 or 20.
 
That's what I have for Nascar.
9,33, 69, 270, 1.1, 1.3, 1.1, 50
Yep, these settings don't help at all for the egg ball issue.. but that's what looks the more natural to me
In the end, I guess users will need to decide if they prefer to go for table perspective or ball shape.
 
BTW, some time ago someone asked if it would be possible to have x/y ball ratio adjustable per table. Is there a chance to have it implemented?

well if you get an egg shaped ball the perspective is actually wrong. The core problem is that we try to fit a table to the screen which hasn't the same aspect ratio. Depending how you mounted your screen in your cab has an impact on the POV to look right. Your layback is much to high all elements are stretched to create the illusion of perspective. The layback setting is actually a scaling/scewing setting and if it's too high everything gets stretched but because the ball moves over the whole play field it looks like it changes its shape. If you would move the complete table with these settings everything would start to wobble and morph if moved towards the camera.
Adding the ball ratio for each table is possible but it won't help everyone. The values depend on your screen size/resolution and there are users who are using a different resolution than 1920x1080.

I think we need to rethink the whole POV thing again. VP is a true 3D application now and you have to deal with the perspective and not to force it to look like you want. however I don't want to remove the possibility of changing the POV the way you do. don't get me wrong I really like your POV settings for VP9 tables but they don't work for VP10. The anti-stretch option doesn't work too well it compensate it a bit but it won't fix it completely.

[Practicedummy]

Mr and Mrs Packman? Never heard of that game.

[fuzzel]

lol yes an unknown beauty

[bent98]

You mean to pin the thread? Don't know how to do that

well yes pin the thread but also make a master thread that links all the threads. Noah would need to pin the thread or a forum admin

[Pinball999]

 

Many thanks Fuzzel.
I really appreciate the efforts you make to solve the egg ball issue, and provide us with guidelines for the adjustments.
I've had a try at your settings for Nascar, and unfortunately they don't work for me.
Recently, when changing the POV, I'm trying to keep the ramps as parallel as possible to the tv side, and this is not possible with an inclinaison around 18 or 20.
 
That's what I have for Nascar.
9,33, 69, 270, 1.1, 1.3, 1.1, 50
Yep, these settings don't help at all for the egg ball issue.. but that's what looks the more natural to me
In the end, I guess users will need to decide if they prefer to go for table perspective or ball shape.
 
BTW, some time ago someone asked if it would be possible to have x/y ball ratio adjustable per table. Is there a chance to have it implemented?

well if you get an egg shaped ball the perspective is actually wrong. The core problem is that we try to fit a table to the screen which hasn't the same aspect ratio. Depending how you mounted your screen in your cab has an impact on the POV to look right. Your layback is much to high all elements are stretched to create the illusion of perspective. The layback setting is actually a scaling/scewing setting and if it's too high everything gets stretched but because the ball moves over the whole play field it looks like it changes its shape. If you would move the complete table with these settings everything would start to wobble and morph if moved towards the camera.
Adding the ball ratio for each table is possible but it won't help everyone. The values depend on your screen size/resolution and there are users who are using a different resolution than 1920x1080.

I think we need to rethink the whole POV thing again. VP is a true 3D application now and you have to deal with the perspective and not to force it to look like you want. however I don't want to remove the possibility of changing the POV the way you do. don't get me wrong I really like your POV settings for VP9 tables but they don't work for VP10. The anti-stretch option doesn't work too well it compensate it a bit but it won't fix it completely.

 

 

No worries Fuzzel, I perfectly understand your explanations and I know that you like some of my settings, Party Zone is here to testify

It's a shame that the same settings can't work 100% for VP10, we will need to find other ways to obtain a good perspective.

[Shockman]

Those recommended settings do result in a round ball, but is far from a working solution.

 

Now it may be true that a table stretched to have the inside fit full screen sideways throws off the aspect ratio, but has always looked right to me. At 16/10 anyways.

 

The settings are there to fit the table. and when fitting the ball instead makes the table not fit. It also makes the circle light inserts look round, or too round. The appearance of a circle is based on perspective (position), but a sphere is a sphere from any perspective.

 

The only working solution is to take no account of the table settings, but only the display aspect ratio when drawing your sphere.  

[mpad]

Just do some invisible ball that is dependent on the table setting to get all physical stuff and collisions right. then draw the visible ball on top which is just there to look round depending on aspect ratio and do no table interactions.

[fuzzel]

That's not a solution. The ball is a 3rd element as everything else on the table. Rendering it with different camera settings results in a round ball but the position is different to the actual position because the perspective matrix is different. It all has to meet the mathematical principles: round ball -> the table looks different. Good looking table -> egg ball.
The only solution is to build the table a bit different as you did it in VP9. The layout is crucial for this.

[Shockman]

Just do some invisible ball that is dependent on the table setting to get all physical stuff and collisions right. then draw the visible ball on top which is just there to look round depending on aspect ratio and do no table interactions. 

 

 

I don't think that is necessary. There is enough information to have it the correct size, and collision is not dependent on a certain aspect ratio of the ball.

 

If the ball is 1.0 to 1.0 and a true sphere, there are extra calculations being done somewhere to warp it

Edited by Shockman, 22 March 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[Shockman]

That's not a solution. The ball is a 3rd element as everything else on the table. Rendering it with different camera settings results in a round ball but the position is different to the actual position because the perspective matrix is different. It all has to meet the mathematical principles: round ball -> the table looks different. Good looking table -> egg ball.
The only solution is to build the table a bit different as you did it in VP9. The layout is crucial for this.

 

VP9 builds VP9 tables only, and is not the only game in town with a round ball. In the world of pinball games, VP10 is probably the only one without. I don't see it as a big problem, for some reason, I'm usually more anal about such things. I understand the desire to fix it though.

[dyopp21]

I will try again using some of these recommended solutions.  That wonky ball shape really throws me!