79 replies to this topic

[Mitchell]

I want everyone know to stop blaming ATI graphics cards over VP issues. VP can't handle reading the ATI drivers very well. "THIS ISN'T ATI DRIVERS ISSUES." The way Randy made the VP is when he didn't have a ATI graphics card at all. All he have is the NVIDIA graphics card. Most of the people working on the VP doesn't have a ATI graphics card as well. If it ATI drivers issues then "WHY MOST OF THE PC GAMES IS WORKING FINE WITH THOSE DRIVERS?" "SO STOP BLAMING THOSE PLEASE."

VP doesn't work right with the ATI until it have better video drivers reading support added on the VP by someone that have a ATI graphics card. Your stuck with the 9.0.9 or older until issues are fix.

Edited by Mitchell, 26 February 2011 - 10:37 PM.

[rob046]

Not sure what you are talking about. My ATI card has been nothing short of AWESOME for me. With all games, VP & FP included. Before my current card, ATI HD5870, I was a nvidia guy, I only had nvidia cards. Probably went through 8 nvidia cards since I started using VP 7+ years ago.
Yet out of all my cards it is this ATI card that has delivered the best performance & stability.

I thought people's issues with ATI & VP were a thing of the past. Between ATI's newer cards of the past couple years and VP's "hd renderer" & "reorder" options, I thought ATI was on par with Nvidia.
Are you talking about older ATI cards?
Cuz I could see how cards before the 5xxx & maybe 4xxx series might still have issues.

I keep up to date on the latest drivers. I have a profile setup for VP that works great. I couldn't be happier.
I still like nvidia. But last year or whenever, I just wanted a really fast card that supported DX11 for my Dirt 2 game, & nvidia fell behind with dx11, so I had to get the 5870. Great & versatile card it has been (I sounded like yoda there).
I may go back to nvidia for my next card, but these days I don't even worry about VP compatibility, I will simply buy whatever card best matches my needs, whether it be ATI or nvidia I no longer care. & that is a compliment to ATI, not a knock on nvidia.

[TheMcD]

I've got a 3450 with 512 MB. It's your average laptop card. But can somebody explain to me why VP9 runs incredibly slow when I'm using Win7 drivers, but works without a hitch when I use WinXP drivers? Nobody's been able to fix that problem so far.

The McD

[sleepy]

The Win7 drivers would be for DirectX 11
Is DirectX 11 emulating DirectX 9c?

[Noah Fentz]

Better yet, DirectX 7, which is what VP is still on.

[sleepy]

DirectX has been emulating DirectDraw (2D graphics) since DX8.

http://en.wikipedia....rosoft_Direct3D

Direct3D is a 3D API. That is, it contains many commands for 3D rendering; however, since version 8, Direct3D has superseded the old DirectDraw framework and also taken responsibility for the rendering of 2D graphics.[1] Microsoft strives to continually update Direct3D to support the latest technology available on 3D graphics cards. Direct3D offers full vertex software emulation but no pixel software emulation for features not available in hardware. For example, if software programmed using Direct3D requires pixel shaders and the video card on the user's computer does not support that feature, Direct3D will not emulate it, although it will compute and render the polygons and textures of the 3D models, albeit at a usually degraded quality and performance compared to the hardware equivalent. The API does include a Reference Rasterizer (or REF device), which emulates a generic graphics card in software, although it is too slow for most real-time 3D applications and is typically only used for debugging. A new real-time software rasterizer, WARP, designed to emulate complete feature set of Direct3D 10.1, will be included with Windows 7; its performance is said to be on par with lower-end 3D cards.[citation needed]

I thought VP was updated to Direct3D via DirectX 9c.
Thinking doesn't mean I'm right though.

[toxie]

VP uses Direct3D nowadays, yes, but not in the sense one would think..
basically all the realtime performance is limited by more or less simple 2D operations.. via DX7.. and this involves a lot of blocking and synching on nowadays systems..

[sleepy]

Well, I could be right.
From the source code: vbatest_eng.rc

STRINGTABLE
BEGIN
IDS_NEED_DD9 "Visual Pinball requires DirectX 9.0 or higher from Microsoft."

But...This is a Frankenstein.

display.h

void Display_CreateTexture ( LPDIRECT3DDEVICE7_ Direct3DDevice, LPDIRECTDRAW7 DirectDrawObject,_ LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 DDrawSurface, int Width, int Height,_ LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 *Texture, float *u, float *v );

void Display_CopyTexture ( LPDIRECT3DDEVICE7 Direct3DDevice,_ LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 DestTexture, RECT *Rect,_ LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 SourceTexture );

void Display_ClearTexture ( LPDIRECT3DDEVICE7 Direct3DDevice,_ LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 Texture, char Value );_
void Display_DestroyTexture ( LPDIRECTDRAWSURFACE7 Texture );

You beat me.

Note to anyone. This is badly copied code with sloppy breaks inserted for line breaks while missing a few, and is not to be relied on for accurate C++ scripting.

[toxie]

the stuff in the stringtable says nothing about the code itself.. believe me, its all 100% DX7..

[sleepy]

So maybe the string means that Randy or someone planned to update the code to DX9?

I remember there was talk and concern years ago about updating to DX9.
Maybe that was Black's legendary VP 7 that was never released.

Edited by sleepy, 27 February 2011 - 12:20 AM.

[Mitchell]

May I show you this?

Here we go then. Wall drop issue.

From Visual Pinball 9.0.9 (Working fine)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/1.png

From Visual Pinball 9.1.0 - 9.1.1 (Glitches)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/2.png

Edited by Mitchell, 27 February 2011 - 10:39 AM.

[lettuce]

Well I've just gone from a nvidia gtx 295 to an ati 6970 and have notice loads of GFX glitches all over the tables, I was under the impression that this couldnt be fixed?? On a side note wouldn't move vp over to dx9 boost performance, can vp even be upgraded to use dx9??

Edited by lettuce, 27 February 2011 - 10:54 AM.

[cupid]

May I show you this?

Here we go then. Wall drop issue.

From Visual Pinball 9.0.9 (Working fine)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/1.png

From Visual Pinball 9.1.0 - 9.1.1 (Glitches)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/2.png

And the only difference is that it's droppable?

[rascal]

Well I've just gone from a nvidia gtx 295 to an ati 6970 and have notice loads of GFX glitches all over the tables, I was under the impression that this couldnt be fixed?? On a side note wouldn't move vp over to dx9 boost performance, can vp even be upgraded to use dx9??

It would be a major undertaking to bring VP up to DX9. Everything in VP to do with graphics was done in an outdated, not supported method of Direct3D 7 API. You cannot change some, you have to change it all, because you cannot run both Direct3D 7 and Direct3D 9 API at the same time. But yeah it would definitely increase the performance of VP as there were huge advances to Direct3D from version Direct3D 8 and up as far as performance goes.

It would be better to start from the ground up basically to do it right.

[lettuce]

Well I've just gone from a nvidia gtx 295 to an ati 6970 and have notice loads of GFX glitches all over the tables, I was under the impression that this couldnt be fixed?? On a side note wouldn't move vp over to dx9 boost performance, can vp even be upgraded to use dx9??

It would be a major undertaking to bring VP up to DX9. Everything in VP to do with graphics was done in an outdated, not supported method of Direct3D 7 API. You cannot change some, you have to change it all, because you cannot run both Direct3D 7 and Direct3D 9 API at the same time. But yeah it would definitely increase the performance of VP as there were huge advances to Direct3D from version Direct3D 8 and up as far as performance goes.

It would be better to start from the ground up basically to do it right.

Damn!, that a massive pain in the arse then, and I'm guessing would be a massive undertaking to start from the ground up?., but would be sooo worth it for the performance gains and new features that could be added. Maybe a slow burner side project you guys could do along side the updates to VP maybe.....hey we can dream can't we? .

[rascal]

Damn!, that a massive pain in the arse then, and I'm guessing would be a massive undertaking to start from the ground up?., but would be sooo worth it for the performance gains and new features that could be added. Maybe a slow burner side project you guys could do along side the updates to VP maybe.....hey we can dream can't we? .

There is a slow burner side project which I'm sure Cupid would love to get back to! Cupid's VP Player.
http://www.vpforums....amp;hl=vpplayer

And someday, it will be done and incorporated into VP. Cupid is THE GREAT VP HOPE!

Who knows, it might even work with those damn ATI DRIVERS!!!

Edited by rascal, 27 February 2011 - 12:15 PM.

[Mitchell]

And the only difference is that it's droppable?

That what it look like on VP 9.1.1 when it on drop target setting. Doesn't show dots and holes on VP 9.0.9 and under. I been trying to tell everyone this.

[lettuce]

Damn!, that a massive pain in the arse then, and I'm guessing would be a massive undertaking to start from the ground up?., but would be sooo worth it for the performance gains and new features that could be added. Maybe a slow burner side project you guys could do along side the updates to VP maybe.....hey we can dream can't we? .

There is a slow burner side project which I'm sure Cupid would love to get back to! Cupid's VP Player.
http://www.vpforums....amp;hl=vpplayer

And someday, it will be done and incorporated into VP. Cupid is THE GREAT VP HOPE!

Who knows, it might even work with those damn ATI DRIVERS!!!

We can live in hope rascal......oh your avatar always freaks me out!!

[d3xtro]

May I show you this?

Here we go then. Wall drop issue.

From Visual Pinball 9.0.9 (Working fine)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/1.png

From Visual Pinball 9.1.0 - 9.1.1 (Glitches)

https://sites.google...co0o/Home/2.png

Hi,

Make sure [HD Render] is deselected.

In VP 9.1.1 that would be:

Preferences -> Video Options... -> Performance Item:

Make sure [Hardware Device Rendering] is deselected.

This is my GPU: Gainward Radeon HD 4870 1GB GDDR5 Golden Sample Graphics Card

(Windows XP SP2, Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 processor with 4GB (2x2048MB), DDR2, PC2-8500, 1066 MHz, Platinum Series, Dual Channel RAM)

Latest AMD Catalyst 11.2 Display Driver for Windows XP (32-bits).

The only thing that does not work 'properly' are the transparant ramps:

I took a screen shot from JPSalas' Flintstones_VP911_1.01:



But to my knowledge that is known for quite some time.

Cheers,

[R_L]

Hi

I have big issues with my new ATI 6970 2 GB card win7(64-bit). I use to have a 5770 and with that card I had no trouble at all.

I use the following drivers
Driver Packaging Version 8.821-110126a-112962C-ATI
Catalyst Version 11.2
Provider ATI Technologies Inc.
2D Driver Version 8.01.01.1123
Direct3D Version 7.14.10.0812
OpenGL Version 6.14.10.10524
Catalyst Control Center Version 2011.0126.1749.31909

Inside VP I have tested all kinds of resolutions and window mode and I have used all the checkboxes under Details, Performance.
Have tested some older versions of the driver and even replaced atioglxx.dll that some suggested here on the forum.
I have managed getting from this:

 afm_hd.jpg   69.31KB   67 downloads


To this:

 grafic_bug_afm.JPG   237.98KB   100 downloads

It plays ok but the graphic is not ok, check the bumpers for example.
I would be really grateful for some advice here.

Cheers,

R_L