88 replies to this topic

[PinballShawn]

I have a mint Fast Draw is you need anything.

[nFozzy]

It really is a balance between all objects. You can make .0035 (omg) _feel_ similar to .08 or .1 by changing the settings of all other objects, but the difference is spin. I feel better with .08-.1 pf friction after finally trying it and adjusting everything accordingly. But with that it really takes a lot more to fine tune the flippers to hit the shots. With a lower pf friction, the flippers are so much more forgiving. It really takes fine, minute adjustments to the flipper friction and angle to hit the shots as designed...

I haven't found friction to affect the trajectory of the shots, aside from the timing. Or If it does it's very subtle. Gravity and Flipper Mass absolutely do though.

[freneticamnesic]

I have a mint Fast Draw is you need anything.

Mint you say?? Now that you offer, I could use the actual table Every quick draw/fast draw I see for sale around here looks busted to pieces

 

resource wise I've got everything I need but time

[arielote]

The physical vp 10 are not at all true to a real pinball , a lot have improved visual and graphic physical appearance but in my opinion are not expected .

The ball does things that are not real, in many cases it seems like magnetized If I compare the physical properties of VP9 these are much more real than the VP10 , I want to see the physical VP10 with the VP9 which in my opinion to this day are best. VP10 is graphically superior to VP9 , but not the physical of this .

[BorgDog]

OK, I've been playing some more, and copied some settings from jp's latest Papa Smurf table, and have two versions of my Gemini table that I would like some feedback on.  Both play pretty similiar, but there are some noticeable differences.  The first I tweaked with some help from sliderpoint and has a pf friction of .035 and slope of 4, the second (with the jpp at the end of the file names indicating the mostly borrowed from jp settings) has a playfield friction of .07 and a slope of 5.  There are other differences as well in rubbers, etc to make them both play somewhat appropriately.  For me the thing that is missing from the higher friction table is the slow looping cross table balls and the slow bounces off the top of the top lanes after launch, the higher friction seems to drag them down.  I'm not an expert by any means and own no real tables to compare it too, so I'm looking to experts for help and hopefully we can all benefit.

 

Gemini  https://dl.dropboxus...tlieb 1978).zip

 

Gemini jpp  https://dl.dropboxus...eb 1978)jpp.zip

[freneticamnesic]

 

If I compare the physical properties of VP9 these are much more real than the VP10 , 

 

 

lol 

???

[ICPjuggla]

OMG

That was one of the funniest things I've read all year! lol

[ClarkKent]

The physical vp 10 are not at all true to a real pinball , a lot have improved visual and graphic physical appearance but in my opinion are not expected . [/size]
The ball does things that are not real, in many cases it seems like magnetized If I compare the physical properties of VP9 these are much more real than the VP10 , I want to see the physical VP10 with the VP9 which in my opinion to this day are best. VP10 is graphically superior to VP9 , but not the physical of this .[/size]

I think the VP10 physics are just great, certainly not final and some room for improvement, but great after all. Just note that the quality of the physics very much depends on the table author - AFM, Tommy or DH are just great. Not every author is able to adjust the physics that good but never forget that VP10 was just released...

Best physics of all simulations I have ever seen provides ProPinball Timeshock. Feels like real!

[toxie]

..which is especially devestating as its almost 20 years old and even ran on rather shitty PCs.. 

[chinzman93]

OMG

That was one of the funniest things I've read all year! lol

 

 

Agreed! But since the year is almost over, what did it beat out?

 

[gtxjoe]

OK, I've been playing some more, and copied some settings from jp's latest Papa Smurf table, and have two versions of my Gemini table that I would like some feedback on.  Both play pretty similiar, but there are some noticeable differences.  The first I tweaked with some help from sliderpoint and has a pf friction of .035 and slope of 4, the second (with the jpp at the end of the file names indicating the mostly borrowed from jp settings) has a playfield friction of .07 and a slope of 5.  There are other differences as well in rubbers, etc to make them both play somewhat appropriately.  For me the thing that is missing from the higher friction table is the slow looping cross table balls and the slow bounces off the top of the top lanes after launch, the higher friction seems to drag them down.  I'm not an expert by any means and own no real tables to compare it too, so I'm looking to experts for help and hopefully we can all benefit.

 

Gemini  https://dl.dropboxus...tlieb 1978).zip

 

Gemini jpp  https://dl.dropboxus...eb 1978)jpp.zip

 

 

I played both and I think they both play well.  I don't own real pinball machines either so I can say which one is more realistic  

 

It would be interesting to do this comparison with a modern pin with ramps and higher power flippers, as that is usually when the ball spin on higher friction playfields becomes more noticeable

[BorgDog]

 

OK, I've been playing some more, and copied some settings from jp's latest Papa Smurf table, and have two versions of my Gemini table that I would like some feedback on.  Both play pretty similiar, but there are some noticeable differences.  The first I tweaked with some help from sliderpoint and has a pf friction of .035 and slope of 4, the second (with the jpp at the end of the file names indicating the mostly borrowed from jp settings) has a playfield friction of .07 and a slope of 5.  There are other differences as well in rubbers, etc to make them both play somewhat appropriately.  For me the thing that is missing from the higher friction table is the slow looping cross table balls and the slow bounces off the top of the top lanes after launch, the higher friction seems to drag them down.  I'm not an expert by any means and own no real tables to compare it too, so I'm looking to experts for help and hopefully we can all benefit.

 

Gemini  https://dl.dropboxus...tlieb 1978).zip

 

Gemini jpp  https://dl.dropboxus...eb 1978)jpp.zip

 

 

I played both and I think they both play well.  I don't own real pinball machines either so I can say which one is more realistic

 

It would be interesting to do this comparison with a modern pin with ramps and higher power flippers, as that is usually when the ball spin on higher friction playfields becomes more noticeable

 

 

I agree, it would be good for modern pins as well, but i only make em's (so far) so I'll leave that to someone else.  I've played both Gemini's again off and on this afternoon, and while I think the lower friction version may play closer to the real (just from watching videos) the jpp version plays a little faster at the moment which I actually like better, either would probably do I guess.

[jawdax]

OK, I've been playing some more, and copied some settings from jp's latest Papa Smurf table, and have two versions of my Gemini table that I would like some feedback on.  Both play pretty similiar, but there are some noticeable differences.  The first I tweaked with some help from sliderpoint and has a pf friction of .035 and slope of 4, the second (with the jpp at the end of the file names indicating the mostly borrowed from jp settings) has a playfield friction of .07 and a slope of 5.  There are other differences as well in rubbers, etc to make them both play somewhat appropriately.  For me the thing that is missing from the higher friction table is the slow looping cross table balls and the slow bounces off the top of the top lanes after launch, the higher friction seems to drag them down.  I'm not an expert by any means and own no real tables to compare it too, so I'm looking to experts for help and hopefully we can all benefit.
 
Gemini  https://dl.dropboxus...tlieb 1978).zip
 
Gemini jpp  https://dl.dropboxus...eb 1978)jpp.zip

 
 
I played both and I think they both play well.  I don't own real pinball machines either so I can say which one is more realistic
 
It would be interesting to do this comparison with a modern pin with ramps and higher power flippers, as that is usually when the ball spin on higher friction playfields becomes more noticeable

 
I agree, it would be good for modern pins as well, but i only make em's (so far) so I'll leave that to someone else.  I've played both Gemini's again off and on this afternoon, and while I think the lower friction version may play closer to the real (just from watching videos) the jpp version plays a little faster at the moment which I actually like better, either would probably do I guess.

I had a Gemini, I will try to test both versions and will comment. I'm with hard work, I hope to have some time tomorrow to test

Edited by jawdax, 31 December 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[jpsalas]

OK, I've been playing some more, and copied some settings from jp's latest Papa Smurf table, and have two versions of my Gemini table that I would like some feedback on.  Both play pretty similiar, but there are some noticeable differences.  The first I tweaked with some help from sliderpoint and has a pf friction of .035 and slope of 4, the second (with the jpp at the end of the file names indicating the mostly borrowed from jp settings) has a playfield friction of .07 and a slope of 5.  There are other differences as well in rubbers, etc to make them both play somewhat appropriately.  For me the thing that is missing from the higher friction table is the slow looping cross table balls and the slow bounces off the top of the top lanes after launch, the higher friction seems to drag them down.  I'm not an expert by any means and own no real tables to compare it too, so I'm looking to experts for help and hopefully we can all benefit.

 

Gemini  https://dl.dropboxus...tlieb 1978).zip

 

Gemini jpp  https://dl.dropboxus...eb 1978)jpp.zip

 

I think you only need to increase the elasticity on the top rubbers if you want the ball to bounce more on the top lanes. And there is no problem in reducing the slope if you want a more peaceful table

 

I also liked the lower friction on the playfield, until JF made me realize that the increase in ball spin that I was observing, was indeed because of the playfield's low friction. But the friction on all the other objects must also be adjusted so there aren't too big changes from one object to the other. You'll need to increase the elasticity of the objects if you Increase the playfield's friction, as it is explained in fuzzel's text.

[BigBoss]

I have found coil ramp up to be terrible and setting it to 0 is one of the first things I do after getting a table. The result of ramp up values seems to be impossible back hand shots and lack of strength shooting towards the middle. Real (modern) pinball behaves much closer to a 0 ramp up value.

[StevOz]

I just feel and know from my many years of playing real machines this play field friction parameter should be close to zero, whilst artificially raising upper rubber in lane elasticity is plain wrong, all rubbers on a table should be very similar in elasticity, no matter where they are on the table. It's just a matter of fact, friction has next to no effect on a polished ball zooming around a polished play field, on a well maintained pinball table, this is just simple physics, the inertia of the ball and it's spin is that which effects it most, more so then any other minor physics abstraction.

 

Thus I say the original setting of BD and team are good, very good, perhaps you can up the friction some though when this starts to effect ball behaviour requiring the unequal artificial inflation of elasticity on various other rubber objects then that's just plain wrong. 

Edited by StevOz, 31 December 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[ClarkKent]

I have found coil ramp up to be terrible and setting it to 0 is one of the first things I do after getting a table. The result of ramp up values seems to be impossible back hand shots and lack of strength shooting towards the middle. Real (modern) pinball behaves much closer to a 0 ramp up value.

I can not second that because with ramp coil up 0 you can not do the flipper tricks.

[gtxjoe]

Something to test tomorrow

When flipper is at end of stroke and coil ramp up is 0, does a high value for return strength ratio help with flipper tricks?

If it does not help, maybe the physics has to be changed so coil ramp up only applies if the flipper is not resting at the start position. I.e. If flipper is at start position when button is pressed, coil ramp up value is not applied. If flipper is not in start position when button is pressed then coil ramp up value is in effect

Edited by gtxjoe, 31 December 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[BigBoss]

I have found coil ramp up to be terrible and setting it to 0 is one of the first things I do after getting a table. The result of ramp up values seems to be impossible back hand shots and lack of strength shooting towards the middle. Real (modern) pinball behaves much closer to a 0 ramp up value.

I can not second that because with ramp coil up 0 you can not do the flipper tricks.

sure you can. You just have to adjust some of the other settings such as the one that impacts return speed. I am away from the cabinet so can't be more specific until later.

Edited by BigBoss, 31 December 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[patrickfx]

 

When I first experienced backspin in VP10 I was pretty impressed by it. I still am. But, I feel that because it's novel, some tables may be set to overdo it just a bit. Same with ball biting into the table. I like how the ball feels weightier in VP10, but if I were to criticize, I'd say that in the interest of avoiding floatiness we're sometimes erring on the side of too much "magnetic feeling" pull toward the center drain.

That said, VPX is making definitive improvements to already "best in the business" physics in my opinion.

I'm seeing it all over the map right now and I understand it. Like you said, it's novel so it's being exaggerated. Same with some of the lighting, these massive blooms and lens flairs are cool, but some are overdone quite a bit right now. Same as 9.9 was at first, so much lens flairing it looked like Close Encounters of the Third Kind (you have to be old to get that reference). I think things will smoothen out very soon.

 

I play for about 4 hours yesterday and have to agree with PinballShawn and is example of "Encounters of the Third Kind".  Light are generally to high, to present.  Also, the ball make some very strange direction, like magnetics possession.