74 replies to this topic

[StevOz]

Well to me a nudge or a shake is exactly the same thing and should be encompassed by the same command.

[Noah Fentz]

Steve, you know it can't work that way. Cabs don't use shake and desktops don't use much force, if any (depends on user preference). They have to be separate for use with both.



Let me put it another way ...

Your idea of shake to force ratio is different than mine, as are many people's. VP's versatility is what makes it great. By having them separate, the nudge settings will be as versatile as they possibly can be.

[StevOz]

Actually I know otherwise, it can be, I'm proposing a tweaking of the StartShake command along with a refinement of the nudge command, with a third parameter 'friction' which would dictate the amount the ball would move/change trajectory, best of both worlds the way I envisage it.

Edited by StevOz, 09 March 2011 - 03:06 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Why would you add a third parameter, and how does that make it easier to implement?

Currently, the amount of shake and force are already defined as variables tied together. Separating them would be the easiest method of implementation and the end result would be the same.

There already is a friction value for the playfield, too.

I don't get it.

[StevOz]

Maybe we are both being obstinate and ignorant, I'm only guessing as to what maybe easier to implement. I've looked at the source and yes I can only fathom it partially, not sure about your understanding of it one way or the other. Still my musing on the matter is that surely this VP9 ball movement/trajectory change can be adjusted from what is now, some arbitrary set value and having it adjustable by a variable amount might be a step towards fixing it for all scenarios

Edited by StevOz, 09 March 2011 - 03:21 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Yep, Jolt Amount. It's already in there, but it's not currently tied to keyboard function, I don't believe.

It's basically already set up to be implemented.

[Sabbat]

Once vp9's nudging is perfected it will be such a great thing, because as for now Imagine trying to play a table like this one with the standard vp9 nudging. lol.

You would never lose

[druadic]

Yep, Jolt Amount. It's already in there, but it's not currently tied to keyboard function, I don't believe.

It's basically already set up to be implemented.

Paul;

That's great news for sure. Can't wait to see and use it. I can only thank every1 who have been feverishly doing their best to get all this fixed.

Of course I still have scoring issues with triggers and gates which has me pulling what's left of my hair out. They are just too touchy and I have to find numerous work arounds for this too!

Also as I've said, maybe an EMReel for glass decals could be implemented. I would be forever grateful for this as I think it would save time by not using walls to create glass decals that are transparent. Even a "check" for a "glass decal" would be sufficient. That would rock!

Anyway, thanks for the updates and for all the hard work you guys are putting into this. It's appreciated!

d

Edited by druadic, 09 March 2011 - 05:21 PM.

[rob046]

You use your thumbs to control the flippers and then say, "feels like controlling a real pin (or as close as you can get on a keyboard). "

Rob, you have said some crazy things over the years, but this one is.... Well, maybe you thumb the flippers on a real table.

I guess that does sound odd, but it works. The reason it feels more like controlling a real pin though isn't cuz I use my thumbs, but its because I have my hands placed on the sides of my keyboard just like you have your hands on the sides of a pin.
& I can't think of any better alternatives to make a keyboard feel more like controlling a real pin, cuz pushing down keys with fingertips isn't any less odd than rolling on my thumbs from the sides.
I know people have their own ways, but figured I'd throw my configuration out there because it is super easy to nudge up/left/right just as timely & quickly as you could on a real table. So for those who just can't properly do it with their current config, this one will work.
I spent a lot of time on it too, even before VP I came up with this config after playing many pro pinball games. Over time this is what worked best.
There is a method to my madness!

[unclewilly]

Yep, Jolt Amount. It's already in there, but it's not currently tied to keyboard function, I don't believe.

It's basically already set up to be implemented.

Paul;

That's great news for sure. Can't wait to see and use it. I can only thank every1 who have been feverishly doing their best to get all this fixed.

Of course I still have scoring issues with triggers and gates which has me pulling what's left of my hair out. They are just too touchy and I have to find numerous work arounds for this too!

Also as I've said, maybe an EMReel for glass decals could be implemented. I would be forever grateful for this as I think it would save time by not using walls to create glass decals that are transparent. Even a "check" for a "glass decal" would be sufficient. That would rock!

Anyway, thanks for the updates and for all the hard work you guys are putting into this. It's appreciated!

d

why not just use an alpha transparent ramp for a glass decal

[druadic]

Yep, Jolt Amount. It's already in there, but it's not currently tied to keyboard function, I don't believe.

It's basically already set up to be implemented.

Paul;

That's great news for sure. Can't wait to see and use it. I can only thank every1 who have been feverishly doing their best to get all this fixed.

Of course I still have scoring issues with triggers and gates which has me pulling what's left of my hair out. They are just too touchy and I have to find numerous work arounds for this too!

Also as I've said, maybe an EMReel for glass decals could be implemented. I would be forever grateful for this as I think it would save time by not using walls to create glass decals that are transparent. Even a "check" for a "glass decal" would be sufficient. That would rock!

Anyway, thanks for the updates and for all the hard work you guys are putting into this. It's appreciated!

d

why not just use an alpha transparent ramp for a glass decal

UncleWilly;

Great idea! I never thought of this. Thank you for telling me. I'll guess I have to figure this out a bit but it's a very clever way of making a decal. Thank so much!

d

[Bob5453]

You use your thumbs to control the flippers and then say, "feels like controlling a real pin (or as close as you can get on a keyboard). "

Rob, you have said some crazy things over the years, but this one is.... Well, maybe you thumb the flippers on a real table.

I guess that does sound odd, but it works. The reason it feels more like controlling a real pin though isn't cuz I use my thumbs, but its because I have my hands placed on the sides of my keyboard just like you have your hands on the sides of a pin.
& I can't think of any better alternatives to make a keyboard feel more like controlling a real pin, cuz pushing down keys with fingertips isn't any less odd than rolling on my thumbs from the sides.
I know people have their own ways, but figured I'd throw my configuration out there because it is super easy to nudge up/left/right just as timely & quickly as you could on a real table. So for those who just can't properly do it with their current config, this one will work.
I spent a lot of time on it too, even before VP I came up with this config after playing many pro pinball games. Over time this is what worked best.
There is a method to my madness!

Let me think.... I remember you posted at the old forums that you could type 100 words per minute. So, how fast would you have to hit the [Shift] key and the [Space bar] to have it not feel natural.

[sleepy]

Nudge is all over the place in the code?
Excuse me.

PinInput.cpp

CODE

if(g_pplayer->m_NudgeManual >= 0) g_pplayer->m_NudgeManual = -1; //standard mode
                    else g_pplayer->m_NudgeManual = joyk; //only one joystick has manual control
                        
                    rotLeftManual = g_pplayer->m_NudgeManual >= 0; // for normal UltraCade Table
                    }

Looks like there is a manual (standard for digital keyboard) mode and an Ultracade (analog Wizard mode) already in the current VP code, and this is only logical since a pure digital pulse has no dynamic variance which can apply to that of an analog control input, not unless the simple digital bump from a keyboard input uses a scalar function for analog conversion.

Edited by sleepy, 10 March 2011 - 02:31 AM.

[sleepy]

The only problem I have with setting and adjusting the Nudge is that this is a programming function, not something that the casual player is likely to know how to do.
An editor preference checkbox set to either the -1 (for default keyboard values) or the 0 (for analog nudge input and good intent) makes sense for the non-programmers.

[Noah Fentz]

The only problem I have with setting and adjusting the Nudge is that this is a programming function, not something that the casual player is likely to know how to do.
An editor preference checkbox set to either the -1 (for default keyboard values) or the 0 (for analog nudge input and good intent) makes sense for the non-programmers.

That totally wipes out any chance to have both shake and nudge, in varying portions, to have a really realistic nudge!

It seems like you guys just aren't getting it ...

[blur]

what compiler is recommended for vp source to compile out of the box, visual studio express or some gnu compiler?

i don't get it why is it so important to make shake separate from nudge?
the way it is now, nudge is command that moves the ball, shake is only different representation of the same thing - so when you nudge you can see table shaking or you don't see it.

i don't know if shaking effect affects the ball at all or it is just visual effect?
if shaking effect affects the ball then actually having shake and nudge at the same time will produce different ball movement then having nudge alone. I never checked the source (i will) and it is difficult to see anything just from watching the screen.
but if shake does not affect the ball then it makes no sense to make shaking functions separate from nudging cause shaking functions will do nothing without nudge.

main question here is when i do only shake (without nudge) does it move table only or is table and ball moved at the same time
if table moves with the ball - there is no effect of this shake and it is only visual effect so it makes no sense to make it separate from nudge.
if only table moves - then this has effect on ball - it is actually old style vp8 nudge, and separating shake command from nudge command will actually be like putting old style vp8 nudging in new vp9 with new name for it - "shake". every old table will have to be changed to use shake instead of nudge.
is that what we want?

Edited by blur, 10 March 2011 - 10:09 AM.

[jpsalas]

Then I see it is time to close this poll. 17 likes better VP8 nudging and 11 likes better VP9 nudging.
I guess the reason is that FS players like better VP9 and desktop players like better VP8 nudge since that feels more normal in both kind of tables.

And to resume I guess the solution is to divide the nudge in two paremeters, as Noah says: a shake and a nudge.
Sometimes you just want a shake, like in the shaker motor of some tables, in which the table just shakes a little without disturbing the ball. And I guess desktop users will prefer just a shake with a very small or no nudge at all. This way the ball will only change direction when hitting an objet.
FS users will prefer just a nudge without shake, since they have a cabinet to shake

I also think the best solution would be to make these parameters only available in the script, since each table may require different settings, but I guess they will be quite similar from table to table.

So I guess this poll can be closed, and I hope the VP developers team will try to add these changes since I feel it will help a lot to the nudging

JP

Edited by jpsalas, 31 March 2011 - 06:03 AM.

[StevOz]

No Jolt then?

 

http://www.vpforums....age=entry250812

 

Thread preserved for latter reference.

Edited by StevOz, 12 January 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[ravenriser]

The Nudge found in both versions is nowhere what a real Pin feels like....Version 8.1 in my opnion had the best Nudge and when I use it now it still feels good.  All other Versions of VP give me to much control of the ball.

[Shockman]

Version 8.1 has the same nudging that all previous versions have. Outside a cabinet VP9 is backwards, has the visual feedback disabled, and has no recoil and is rendered totally useless for keyboard users.