74 replies to this topic

[druadic]

Sometimes I even wonder why I post.

[Noah Fentz]

Try not posting ...

"I don't care about what other people want," and I'm sure you'll get better results.



Don't worry, dude, I'm not upset or anything. Just try to remember we are here for everyone.

[druadic]

Try not posting ...

"I don't care about what other people want," and I'm sure you'll get better results.



Don't worry, dude, I'm not upset or anything. Just try to remember we are here for everyone.

Noah,

I understand. What boggles me is the fact there is so much that has to be considered before a change happens. I'm glad I won't mess with the open code because I'd mess it all up! I'm so used to the OLD VP it's hard for me to change. I apologize.

I'd like to see a few add ins for this new VP version like cleaner walls for nails and a nice EMReel decal for the glass. That would really be nice. It's not just for flipperless authors either; who knows what people could do with these two goodies? Maybe these two things could be implemented?

I just think it's wierd that if you press any nudge key (without the proper knowledge of using a tilt script) the ball will float until you stop pressing a key. Seems space agey to me

Thanks for letting me vent.

d

[Noah Fentz]

No worries, man!

Just do this ...

Open a new table and find this line ...

CODE

    If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
        Nudge 0, 2
    End If

Change the 0 to 180, and now it will nudge the way it should.

The ball shouldn't be moving up, it should be moving toward the front of the table.

[druadic]

Awesome. Thanks. That saves my ass with some of these flipperless machines I want to make

Did my two flippered ones. That's it for those for about 6 months or so.

d

[Itchigo]

I prefer vp 8. I think it just feels better to me. I agree with Bob also about the movement.

[StevOz]

Ok, yeah I was wondering about the nudge source code because I have looked at the source and I couldn't find a single routine that seemed to address it, so I guess that's the problem.

I still know the VP9 nudge to be incorrect with it's exaggerated physics and thinking about it, the excessive ball movement seems to be the issue, so perhaps an added parameter to the Nudge might work. Let's call it friction, then a setting of zero friction would see the ball not move at all, whilst higher settings would effect a ball movement to greater amounts. This maybe slightly easier to implement, although as the nudge source code is all over the place, still no small task I imagine.

[rob046]

I think the default VP9 nudging just needs to go, however its done. Whether its bringing in VP8 nudging or other adjustable settings. For now, whatever is easiest. The fact that code needs added (however simple the code may be) to remove the horrible default VP9 nudging just seems a bit sloppy & not good for new users or builders who might not even care about nudging (of which I'm sure there are some), yet it does still affect those who play the table that do care about nudging.

I play whatever tables I can in VP9, whatever doesn't glitch. & many people try to use VP9 as much as possible, if they even have older VP's at all. This means that many hundreds of tables out there load up in VP9 with the default nudging, & I for one don't feel like adding code to all of them. I'm sure casual users & many cabinet users just play tables as they are with minimal to no tweaking. Thus, they are stuck with whatever they are stuck with in terms of nudging or physics.

So I think we need to start there, whatever is the easiest fix that our devs can quickly add for the next release. Like if we just dial it down a few notches, I'm sure the devs can easily do that much for starters.
I know I wouldn't want new or casual players to not be impressed by VP because its way too easy & unrealistic the way nudging is on many of the tables they might load up onto VP9.

Edited by rob046, 07 March 2011 - 02:43 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

Thing is ...

What's there to fix?



The current physics are fine, they're just unfinished, in my opinion. There needs to be some counter-force to simulate the table returning to rest.

Then, if you can set the shake and force as separate settings, just take out the force, if you don't like it, and have it just shake. Having those settings would give everyone what they want, and probably then some, once we start experimenting with different configurations.

[FDSystems]

I have not voted, as I do not nudge in VP, as I do not have enough motor coordination with my fingers. I had to stop trying to play guitar because of this as it was too frustrating !

Ideally, I should be able to physically shake my laptop or PC!


VP8 was much easier, it´s much much more difficult to "Rule the Universe" with VP9. I was a greater player with VP8!

Sorry for that "useless" post but maybe I´m not the only one who does not use the nudge.

[kruge99]

Actually, when VP9 first came out I had an idea and a test table that relied on the default VP9 nudging.

Essentially it was an idea borrowed from the movie Black Hole, where the objective was to keep your satellites in orbit around a planet for a set period of time.

You would start out with 5 pinballs in orbit around the first planet and you had to nudge in order to prevent the orbit from decaying, kind of like firing stabilizer jets. Unfortunately, what one nudge does to improve one pinball/satellite could cause the orbits of the other pinballs to decay.

Scoring was to be based upon the number of pinballs still in orbit when the timer expired. The round would be over if all the pinballs orbits decayed or if the timer expired before the orbits of all the pinballs decayed.

Sadly, I lost the table somewhere and I never went back to it.

All that being said, this type of game wouldn't be possible in VP8.


Best Regards,
Todd.

[Sabbat]

vp8 nudging

but vp9 could be better it's just not yet.

Too easy to play god and manipulate the ball to do and go where ever you want in VP9.

[templarjh]

Let me start off by saying, I never nudge "up" with the space bar in any VP software so I can't comment if "upwards" nudging works or not. (by the time my brain reacts and says 'nudge' I've hit either the left or right nudge key) but this is me, and I understand that everybody plays differently!

I have played most if not all the VP versions when I found out about it since early 2001 and I can say without a doubt, I like VP9 nudging better.

For me, I always felt like the VP8 side nudging was backwards. When VP9 came along I said to myself, Wow! it's working now, albeit, a bit over powered.

The nudging system that Noah, UR and JPSalas have been tweaking is much better than the default nudge in VP9 and should continue to be tweaked in my humble opinion.

I will be very disappointed if the devs switch back to VP8 nudging.

VP9 nudging just needs a bit of TLC to make it better.


Best Regards,
Todd.

Of the previous posts, this is probably the one that best matches my feelings. In concept, the vp9 nudging is more realistic, but it's much too overpowered. If you're trying to nudge off a wall or object however - which is what I do more often both in real life and vp - vp8 feels much more realistic. So I voted for vp8, with the knowledge that vp9 could be better with adjustment.
And yes, I very rarely nudge upwards either. My fingers or thumbs just aren't anywhere near that space bar in time. Same idea with magna-save; my brain just fizzles out.

[rob046]

For nudge up & magnasave, yeah I couldn't use nudge up if I used spacebar. Its all about keyboard configuration. I make my flipper keys the upper left and upper right most keys on my keyboard. I have a logitech g15 gaming keyboard, so that is num pad - and my G2 key. On a normal keyboard its num pad - and the tilde key (left of 1). This way I'm kinda gripping the sides of my keyboard & I'm able to use my thumbs on those flipper buttons. Then I make the left & right nudge keys the lower right & lower left most keys (normal keyboard num pad enter & left ctrl). Now I can use my palms to roll onto the nudge keys, with my palms it doesn't interrupt my flipper play at all. For magnasaves I simply use the keys to inside of each flipper key, keeps em close by.

As for the up nudge. I simply use the key right below my left flipper button to where I can just use the middle part of my thumb (the bend) to easily activate that one but again not have my thumb stray from the flipper button. The reason I use G3 or TAB for the up nudge is because plungers are on the right side of games, & the long "num pad +" right below my right flipper button works perfectly for the plunger, & again I'm not straying my thumb away from the right flipper.
So I can easily play all games without looking at my keyboard, my hands & fingers barely move at all. Its all palms & thumbs & very much feels like controlling a real pin (or as close as you can get on a keyboard). When I came up with this configuration years ago, it was super easy to adjust to. Felt natural.
I use this same configuration for ALL pin games. FP & any others.

[Bob5453]

Its all palms & thumbs & very much feels like controlling a real pin (or as close as you can get on a keyboard). When I came up with this configuration years ago, it was super easy to adjust to. Felt natural.

You use your thumbs to control the flippers and then say, "feels like controlling a real pin (or as close as you can get on a keyboard). "

Rob, you have said some crazy things over the years, but this one is.... Well, maybe you thumb the flippers on a real table.

[templarjh]

I've played vp for a few years now, and for some reason I've always been too lazy to do a few mouse clicks and change key configurations :/ Maybe I'll give it a try sometime. Anyway, I think if vp9 could have vp8's object/wall-nudging, while putting its current nudging strength at about 1/3 power, that would feel about right. Maybe?

[StevOz]

The current physics are fine, they're just unfinished, in my opinion.

Oxymoron...why yes, yes it is.

Sorry if this offends your sensibilities but either it's fine or it needs refinement, yes?

Edited by StevOz, 09 March 2011 - 02:28 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Meh.

They're half done. Just needs some counter-force.

The physics are fine for what is done, though.

[StevOz]

Meh.

They're half done. Just needs some counter-force.

The physics are fine for what is done, though.

OK, so you feel there is no exsagarated ball movement/trajectory change upon a nudge with the current VP9.12 nudge settings?

Just trying to gage your exact opinion on the matter.

Edited by StevOz, 09 March 2011 - 02:41 PM.

[Noah Fentz]

Meh.

They're half done. Just needs some counter-force.

The physics are fine for what is done, though.

OK, so you feel there is no exsagarated ball movement/trajectory change upon a nudge with the current VP9.12 nudge settings?

Just trying to gage your exact opinion on the matter.

I'd like to see the force of the nudge (i.e. the physical ball reaction) and the shake animation of the table adjustable separately. The current nudge ratio of force to shake is too much force for the amount of animation.

As it is now, by default, once you reduce the amount of nudge below 1 (I believe it is), you no longer get any shake, too, which makes it even tougher to work with.


On a side note, one thing I'd really like to address is that I keep hearing complaints about if you repeatedly hit nudge, the ball can travel all over the table, and that it is physically impossible ...

Well, so is nudging that fast repeatedly!