22 replies to this topic

[tmek]

Hi guys,
 
I have a few things to share.
 
# 1.) Pinball Event Protocol project added on Github
 
I have put together a project on git hub with all of the experiments and code I did relating to a "Pinball Event Protocol" that would ideally provide an open method of communication between virtual pinball simulators, controllers like VPinMAME, real life hardware, homebrew platforms or any other peices of software that wanted to take part in that chain of communication.

 

https://github.com/t...llEventProtocol
 
It's very much just a beginning and proof of concept but if there were people interested in moving this project forward I think it makes a for a good start.
 
There are three projects, One is the PEP proof of concept seen in this video, with a Server and Client.  Currently this uses Named Pipes on Windows but it should probably switch to using normal TCP/IP or UDP sockets.  It would probably still be plenty fast and could even span across, not just different processes, but different machines as well.
 

 
One is the simple VPinMAME test app I made that I thought some might like to tinker with or might be useful for those recreating tables.
 

 
The third was an idea to extend the test app to allow you to import the layout for an machine from the manufacturers manual and quickly click where the lights, switches and drivers were, and then you could interact and test with pinmame in more visual and relatable way just by clicking where the lights or switches were in the diagram.  Again the idea here would that it might be a tool for someone recreating an existing table.  I also intended for it to tie into P.E.P. streams and let you monitor what was going on.
 

 
 
 
# 2.) Epic's Japanese offices did some work on a "Pinball Construction Kit" for Unreal Engine 4.
 
I recently received an email from one of Epic's employees that works in their Japanese offices:
 
 

Hey Thomas,
 
I saw your Kickstarter, and it reminded me a lot of a Pinball Construction Kit project we made last year here at Epic Games' Japan office, and published in November:
bit.ly/epicpinball (Japanese)
 
The forum is Japanese, but the whole project with source code and everything can be downloaded at this link:
https://epicgames.bo.../PinballProject
 
and there's English documentation for it here:
https://epicgames.bo...m/PinballManual
 
We also did a presentation, but unfortunately that is only Japanese so far:
(part 1) 
(part 2)
 
That's all been made completely public, so please feel free to re-use and build on top of any portion of it for your project.
Good luck with your Kickstarter!
 
- Joe

 

I think if there's anyone interested in doing some pinball work using Unreal Engine 4 there's lots of good stuff to leverage from this.  Especially their spline based editing work for walls, ramps and habitrails.  
 
 
# 3.) Status of Pinball Labs
 
I've been questioning how I should move forward in the days since the Kickstarter failed.  For now I've decided to take a break from Pinball Labs to revisit a sci-fi project I had started working on before diving into Pinball Labs.
 
As many of you know Pinball Labs started as virtual reality project.  While I do love pinball and would have absolutely done my best to complete Pinball Labs had the Kickstarter succeeded, virtual reality is really my driving passion right now.  I think this sci-fi project also might have a bit broader appeal and hopefully could help pay some bills and put food on the table. 
 
This doesn't mean I'm giving up on Pinball Labs.  There still may be interest by a company in funding development of an Unreal Engine pinball game with original table designs.  It seems a slim chance but if that works out it would indirectly help move Pinball Labs forward quite a bit.  
 
Hopefully you guys can understand where I'm coming from regarding this decision.   For now I'm happy to release the source code related to the "Pinball Event Protocol" experiments and I'm betting someone will be able to do something cool with the UE4 Pinball Construction Kit.
 

-- Thomas

 

Edit:

 

I just wanted to make a few points further explaining why it's not financially viable for me to be working on Pinball Labs right now.  Software development like this is hard and very time consuming and for me requires my full focus and attention to be effective at it. Two or three years ago I was in a position financially where I could have continued working on it for several months, even if it was just for fun, but that's not my situation today.

 

Any professional programmer will tell you $18,500 wouldn't come close to covering the amount of man hours needed to fulfill the requirements outlined in the Pinball Labs Kickstarter.  I think the cheapest quote you'd get for building a relatively simple iPhone game would be something like $100,000 (from a competent developer).  $18,500 was just the amount that I set to be an indicator that enough people were interested such that down the road I'd have a chance of recouping the investment of my time.

 

Over 26% of the $15,300 pledged during the Kickstarter came from just three people.  Even with that kind of boost, the $18,500 goal still wasn't fulfilled by the rest of the community.  If you think in terms of the paragraph above that's a pretty scary proposition for a developer. Some will point out that the middle of the campaign ran through the holidays, but it's also true that campaigns in general have considerably less contributions during the middle of their run. 

Edited by tmek, 28 January 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[bent98]

Goodluck with your sci-fi project. I for one am really bummed out that we came so close but failed to deliver on fulfilling the kickstarter.

[chepas]

Nice one Tmek. Very generous of you, will look forward to playing with the eventP.

 

It's a shame you're not reopening the KS.

 

If you did reopen the KS for 60 days, surely you can jump off onto the Sci-Fi for 60 days and all will be ready to continue fully funded.

[vampirolatino2]

I think he lost interest? Shame, as this project was like a full vp replacement for me. Unreal Engine is very awesome and you can do wonders with it.

[bent98]

I wish I had 18 grand laying around.

[tochni]

I think it was just a lack of enough marketing for the Kickstarter campaign otherwise it could have got much more.

[tmek]

I think it was just a lack of enough marketing for the Kickstarter campaign otherwise it could have got much more.

 

In broad marketing terms this campaign received an impressive amount of coverage and traffic.  

 

RoadToVR wrote a nice article on Pinball Labs, which got picked up from Engadget and then picked up from TechCrunch.  It was mentioned on the Discovery Channel's "Daily Planet" TV show.  Linus Tech mentioned it too.  This campaign got some pretty amazing publicity.  

 

However most of the people who would have interest in supporting something like Pinball Labs are already tightly congregated within the virtual pinball communities.  I wrote sincere emails to everyone that was suggested and to a few that weren't.  Everyday throughout the campaign I repeatedly visited about 20 sites bookmarked where I had posted about Pinball Labs.  I answered questions and did my best to positively interact with each sub community.

 

Two of the biggest reasons it didn't succeed are that the virtual pinball community at large feels that:

 

#1 They have been burned by too many previous pinball related Kickstarter projects.

 

#2 Open source or free options have been the norm so far and things should continue that way.   

 

Both are very understandable, valid points that are hard to counter when you're asking for money upfront.  

 

If those weren't the strongly held views of the community, $18,500 would have been trivial to raise during that period.  I mean, I watched a Kickstarter raise over $10,000 for a local women's knitting group.

[tochni]

Nevertheless I really do not understand why Farsight got so much money through Kickstarter in the past. The Addams Family alone got almost 100k. I mean it was just one table. Pinball Labs is so much more.

 

Open source would be nice though because if the developer abandons the project the community would be able to continue. So perhaps at least a promise to release the source code in that case in the future would be appreciated.

Edited by tochni, 28 January 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[chepas]

The reason why it failed is because you didn't do it for long enough and you probably lost out a lot not having a Paypal option.

 

Knitting.... my mother does it, her mother does it , her mother did it. Knitting is FAR bigger than pinball, don't be surprised when crappy board games and knitting are pulling in thousands every hour.

 

You're in nicheville. Pinball is nicheville. You must realize it doesn't matter whether its real pinball or virtual, it just isn't that popular and it never will be.

[tochni]

you probably lost out a lot not having a Paypal option.

 

This is a really good point. I heard that problem from many others also in connection to some other Kickstarter projects.

[tmek]

The reason why it failed is because you didn't do it for long enough and you probably lost out a lot not having a Paypal option.

 

Knitting.... my mother does it, her mother does it , her mother did it. Knitting is FAR bigger than pinball, don't be surprised when crappy board games and knitting are pulling in thousands every hour.

 

You're in nicheville. Pinball is nicheville. You must realize it doesn't matter whether its real pinball or virtual, it just isn't that popular and it never will be.

 

The knitting comparison was between the global virtual pinball community and a single local small town knitting group.  I don't think that's a stretch.

 

I sincerely feel I've covered your other points above (if you're willing to reasonably take everything I've written in this thread so far as a whole.)

[bent98]

Awesome!

PayPal is big. I really wish you would reconsider trying again. Where the real money is in the post sale of the tables and additional sale of program itself. When people see a finished product they will buy. The mere fact we were so close would give people enough fuel to ensure it was funded. Also I think you didn't offer enough options to generate higher donation tiers .

[chepas]

Yes you have covered the points but I don't agree.

 

 

#1 They have been burned by too many previous pinball related Kickstarter projects.

 

#2 Open source or free options have been the norm so far and things should continue that way.  

 

Which projects? We've had to wait a while for Timeshock , but apart from that, where is the burning (insert TPA) ?  The majority of pinball kickstarters fail, I have seen a fair few virtual, clubs or for museums

 

Unit3D was/is a non-kickstarter ongoing donation and I think I am right by saying that even some Pinball arcades went for 60 days.

 

You pulled in 16K for pinball in a month. I could understand if you got 6K, it would be a bit Meh, but it was much better than that.

 

It's up to you at the end of the day, I'm not trying to stop you leaving for Mars, just pointing out the obvious.

[Slydog43]

Also have a larger backer option (I would have given $200 no problem for this awesome project)  Please don't go

[Ben Logan]

Disappointing news, but totally understandable. It must take a lot of energy to make a Kickstarter push like the one tmek made. I can see the need to step away and regroup -- maybe for quite some time, or even permanently.

That said -- our community may be small, but we generated a lot of excitement over Pinball Labs. I can only imagine that seed will grow. If your passion for the project returns at some point, tmek, we can leverage the momentum you built during this first push.

Whatever happens, you certainly have my respect and admiration, tmek

[lodger]

Disappointing news, but totally understandable. It must take a lot of energy to make a Kickstarter push like the one tmek made. I can see the need to step away and regroup -- maybe for quite some time, or even permanently.

That said -- our community may be small, but we generated a lot of excitement over Pinball Labs. I can only imagine that seed will grow. If your passion for the project returns at some point, tmek, we can leverage the momentum you built during this first push.

Whatever happens, you certainly have my respect and admiration, tmek

Agreed, you have some incredible talent and vision to be sure. the pinball protocol you mentioned above is also an INCREDIBLE idea. 

[jdark]

First you stated that you will continue and relaunch labs with more features when the kickstarter fail. Now you did give up. WTF? You first idea was the right so stop changing your course caused by your feelings and do the right job

[tmek]

First you stated that you will continue and relaunch labs with more features when the kickstarter fail. Now you did give up. WTF? You first idea was the right so stop changing your course caused by your feelings and do the right job

 

Hi Jdark, 

 

I *may* relaunch Pinball Labs at some point in the future but I don't believe I ever said for certain I was or in what timeframe, because I knew doing it again would be a difficult decision.  Where did you see that?  I might have said I would think about it or that Kickstarter allows relaunching.  I don't believe I have deleted or edited any posts since the Kickstarter failed, outside of this thread.  If I said it you should be able to find it.

 

Doing something like this Kickstarter means I would've been working for 40-60 hours a week for at least six months straight.  I've shown the math before but it comes out to like $6 - $7 per hour USD at best. 

 

I don't think you should criticize someone's choices in life that will affect them so seriously financially.  Especially someone who's already demonstrated good faith and was willing to put their neck on the line once already.

 

Maybe you should put your neck on the chopping block with me at a similar level first.  If you have $100k-$200k for capital available I'd be happy to talk with you about sharing the financial risks and rewards of a project like Pinball Labs.

 

Thanks!

Thomas

[jdark]

No offense, i backed about 180USD. There is no need to explain it mathematically. Why? because the idea behind the project is great. And the project needs some victims. It's a dream which you shouldn't give up. It costs but it's great, just great. I'm so sad.

[bent98]

Tmek,

 

Its possible JDark comes off as rude or insensitive because he is from another country and may not speak native English or running his comments through a translator, at least I hope so. I for one am sad, angry, and disappointed not with you but with what could have been. I am happy to hear you haven't total given up on working on a pinball project in the future. I whole hearty believe if you decide to give it another go it would get funded and in time after a product is completed, you would reap far greater rewards then you think. There are a lot of people who like to play pinball but just don't even know programs like this exist.

 

I am in IT sales and interact with various DBA's, Infrastructure, and Data Center IT customer contacts and when I show them videos of my Pincab they flip the fu*k out. They may not go out and build a pincab but they defiantly would purchase pin sim for their pc, phone/.tablet to play.

 

No one can criticize your level of effort in trying to promote your idea but there were some limiting factors (30 days vs 60, not enough donation tiers, playable table, no paypal) if removed in combination or by themselves would have easily funded the kick stater.

 

I feel like if you gave it a second chance sooner rather then waiting we would still have the momentum and thus have a better chance to make it happen.

 

It's just the way many of us feel and please don't take any offense what I am saying and I totally respect your decision either way,.