47 replies to this topic

[randr]

Thought I would share this. I'm sure others have seen looks great but towards back walls seem Angled in to much? Otherwise really looks good! Angle ain't even bad to be honest.
Non iPhone rotated view

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Edited by randr, 10 September 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[mountaingamer]

What exactly are we looking at?

[Arcade4]

Looks like the perspective of how Timeshock will look in our cabinets.

[randr]

Looks like the perspective of how Timeshock will look in our cabinets.

correct.

[Pinball999]

Same here. The back wall issue is maybe more visible on our screen because of their placement. My 46" is at around 6° and a few cm below the glass.

Other than that, it is REALLY promising!!

[adebarritt]

Thought I would share this. I'm sure others have seen looks great but towards back walls seem Angled in to much? Otherwise really looks good! Angle ain't even bad to be honest.
Non iPhone rotated view

 

Thanks for posting that, it's very helpful.

Ade.

[cottonm4]

randr, I have a real dumb question (I'm not really a PC  guy). Perhaps you, or any others reading can help. How do you get that pic placed on your monitor?  Whenever I open up the .jpg in Paint or Office, I keep getting the Microsoft window borders. If I make it the desktop background pic, all of my desktop icons are in the way. 

 

I"m wanting to do the same as you so Ade can get some ideas of how this .jpg looks on different size monitors. I have a 28" monitor.

 

Thanks.

Edited by cottonm4, 10 September 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[zeenon]

In Paint (on Win7) if you goto the view tab, there is an option for full screen:

 

http://www.vpforums....e=1#entry238237

 

Z

[hotdp]

I wonder if it is better to have the screen closer to the glass now that there is more depth in the playfield?

[randr]

I think it looks great my 47" play field is 2.75" from top of cab in back and just shy of 1/2" from top in front! Sides of image are slightly angled in but that be be in purpose? Like I said looks good!

[adebarritt]

I wonder if it is better to have the screen closer to the glass now that there is more depth in the playfield?

 

That's a very good question. Different cabinets seem to have the monitor in different places relative to the glass. We don't have a cabinet yet, but I can't help thinking that the monitor should be exactly where the glass on a real table would be, as that gives you the most control over what you would see through that glass. Real pinball tables have toys on the sides that some up all the way to the glass, and surely the only way to authentically recreate that in a cabinet must be to have the monitor where the glass would be, don't you think?

Ade.

[hotdp]

 

I wonder if it is better to have the screen closer to the glass now that there is more depth in the playfield?

 

That's a very good question. Different cabinets seem to have the monitor in different places relative to the glass. We don't have a cabinet yet, but I can't help thinking that the monitor should be exactly where the glass on a real table would be, as that gives you the most control over what you would see through that glass. Real pinball tables have toys on the sides that some up all the way to the glass, and surely the only way to authentically recreate that in a cabinet must be to have the monitor where the glass would be, don't you think?

Ade.

 

 

That is 100% what I am thinking and I really like what I see! I have my monitor lowered but I miss reflections from the side and depth in the playfield.(FP/VP) Your solution looks great! and I would love to move my screen up to the glass for best emulation.

[randr]

I see what you guys are saying, but

A: would not change or build a cab for just one simulated game.

B: no way could you get the proper depth(of real pinball) if screen was all the way to glass.

i think the way most are setup like mine works well with future pinball and bam and future pinball has similar prospective as time shock. plus works well with visual pinball. i tried a flush mounted playfield and hated it.

[Noah Fentz]

There is also the very real issue of heat when the monitor is right up against the glass. It's bad enough we run these monitors in a position where the heat rises into itself. It could substantially shorten the lifespan of many a monitor without properly exhausting the heat.

[Roo]

This is interesting.  I don't think you are ever going to be able to get it perfect for everyone because of different cabinet builds and different height people (or even different stances, like you said).  It's a bit like that 3D sidewalk art that only looks correct from one position (see #15 and #23 here).  That said, it's remarkably good already and I really appreciate the attention to detail for cabinets.

 

Here's the image on my cabinet - a standard 37" VirtuaPin, which Paul says is the same dimensions as a Fish Tales.

 

Eyeball view - I'm 6'0" and I tried to have the lens where my eyes would be when playing normally (leaning over the table slightly).

 

Full table view - This shows the whole table down to the lockdown bar.

 

If I'm going to nitpick, I agree with others that the flasher in the back looks a little weird.  It's tough to see in the picture, but it's like I'm seeing too direct a view of the front side considering how high my eyes are.  If I crouch down about a foot, it seems better.  It then looks about like what my brain is expecting from that height.  I think peoples' eyes are drawn to this flasher because we know what a cylinder like that should look like from certain angles.  By comparison, I couldn't really tell you if I'm seeing too much of one side or the other on most of the other objects near the back of the playfield, though.  So it all looks fine.

 

The problem with the apron is illustrated by the second pic.  16:9 monitors are really nice for cabinets, but still not quite as tall as a playfield it seems.  I don't own a real machine for direct comparison, but if you look at the second pic I think the part of the apron with the instructions cards would be on the blacked out part with the VirtuaPin logo, not up on the screen.  You wouldn't have that gap there pushing the flippers away from you (example real table for comparison).  Now I think many of us have gotten used to seeing that part on-screen, as every pinball game I can think of shows it.  It is cool having the full apron with art and instructions cards for each table, after all.

 

So I don't think it's a huge deal one way or the other.  But if you're going for the most realistic viewing angle (like from your eyes to the flippers, for example), a view with the cards cut off may work better.  It does seem like maybe your render is assuming that the monitor is right up against the lockdown bar - the view of the flippers is almost completely vertical, with only a touch of the front side showing.

 

Obviously your mileage will vary if your cab is different!

[Pinball999]

I see what you guys are saying, but

A: would not change or build a cab for just one simulated game.

B: no way could you get the proper depth(of real pinball) if screen was all the way to glass.

i think the way most are setup like mine works well with future pinball and bam and future pinball has similar prospective as time shock. plus works well with visual pinball. i tried a flush mounted playfield and hated it.

 

I completely agree, and would add the following points:

-Recent virtual cabs are build with flashers above the screen.

-Having the screen on the glass would make the EM tables look too angled.

 

@Ade,

Can you estimate how many alternate views could be added to the game?

[adebarritt]

I see what you guys are saying, but

A: would not change or build a cab for just one simulated game.

B: no way could you get the proper depth(of real pinball) if screen was all the way to glass.

i think the way most are setup like mine works well with future pinball and bam and future pinball has similar prospective as time shock. plus works well with visual pinball. i tried a flush mounted playfield and hated it.

A: That's fair enough. :-)

B: I'm afraid I disagree with this point though. If you look at the cool sidewalk art that Roo posted links to, you can see exactly what we are trying to do. The drawings on the top of the sidewalk are the equivalent of having the monitor on the top of the cabinet. That said, I think the difference between having the monitor at the top or a little bit dropped down is relatively small.

Ade.

There is also the very real issue of heat when the monitor is right up against the glass. It's bad enough we run these monitors in a position where the heat rises into itself. It could substantially shorten the lifespan of many a monitor without properly exhausting the heat.

Thanks, that explains a lot. Roll on large and cheap OLED monitors. :-)

 

Ade.

[hotdp]

About the heat:

My screen really don't generate much heat. 

 

 

 

That said, I think the difference between having the monitor at the top or a little bit dropped down is relatively small.

 

So if there is 1/2" etc for air I think at least my cap build would be fine. 

[adebarritt]

This is interesting.  I don't think you are ever going to be able to get it perfect for everyone because of different cabinet builds and different height people (or even different stances, like you said).  It's a bit like that 3D sidewalk art that only looks correct from one position (see #15 and #23 here).  That said, it's remarkably good already and I really appreciate the attention to detail for cabinets.

 

Here's the image on my cabinet - a standard 37" VirtuaPin, which Paul says is the same dimensions as a Fish Tales.

 

Eyeball view - I'm 6'0" and I tried to have the lens where my eyes would be when playing normally (leaning over the table slightly).

 

Full table view - This shows the whole table down to the lockdown bar.

 

If I'm going to nitpick, I agree with others that the flasher in the back looks a little weird.  It's tough to see in the picture, but it's like I'm seeing too direct a view of the front side considering how high my eyes are.  If I crouch down about a foot, it seems better.  It then looks about like what my brain is expecting from that height.  I think peoples' eyes are drawn to this flasher because we know what a cylinder like that should look like from certain angles.  By comparison, I couldn't really tell you if I'm seeing too much of one side or the other on most of the other objects near the back of the playfield, though.  So it all looks fine.

 

The problem with the apron is illustrated by the second pic.  16:9 monitors are really nice for cabinets, but still not quite as tall as a playfield it seems.  I don't own a real machine for direct comparison, but if you look at the second pic I think the part of the apron with the instructions cards would be on the blacked out part with the VirtuaPin logo, not up on the screen.  You wouldn't have that gap there pushing the flippers away from you (example real table for comparison).  Now I think many of us have gotten used to seeing that part on-screen, as every pinball game I can think of shows it.  It is cool having the full apron with art and instructions cards for each table, after all.

 

So I don't think it's a huge deal one way or the other.  But if you're going for the most realistic viewing angle (like from your eyes to the flippers, for example), a view with the cards cut off may work better.  It does seem like maybe your render is assuming that the monitor is right up against the lockdown bar - the view of the flippers is almost completely vertical, with only a touch of the front side showing.

 

Obviously your mileage will vary if your cab is different!

Thanks, that's a very helpful post! The sidewalk art is amazing to see and is similar to what we're trying to do. We are going to try some new renders to improve the distortion at the back of the table and we're also going to move the rulecards up which will let us reduce the size of the apron. The view does indeed assume the monitor is down by the lockdown bar, which is why the flippers are viewed close to top-down, which is what I think most people over 5 foot would see from with a standing stance.

 

We're never going to render something that works perfectly for everyone, but feedback like this will really help us improve what we have.

Ade.

 

I see what you guys are saying, but

A: would not change or build a cab for just one simulated game.

B: no way could you get the proper depth(of real pinball) if screen was all the way to glass.

i think the way most are setup like mine works well with future pinball and bam and future pinball has similar prospective as time shock. plus works well with visual pinball. i tried a flush mounted playfield and hated it.

 

I completely agree, and would add the following points:

-Recent virtual cabs are build with flashers above the screen.

-Having the screen on the glass would make the EM tables look too angled.

 

@Ade,

Can you estimate how many alternate views could be added to the game?

 

At least to begin with, there will only be one cabinet view. To properly render a view takes a very long time for a lot of CPUs. :-) That said, I'm confident that we can find a view that looks great on everyone's cabinet. We have a couple of months before we have to do the final renders, so there's time to find the best balance.

Ade.

[Pinball999]

Thanks for the swift answer Ade.

One last question from me

 

There are many threads right now about the render view, and I guess more will be created with the next render

Is there a site or thread that would prefer to use to receive feedback?