192 replies to this topic

[sza]

Thanks for the kind words guys, though I don't think I have the support of the whole community - some think I'm hacking the program to do this, which I'm not.

I wish we were all one big happy pinball family I really do. I have no issue with anyone at all and I'd love to make peace and have some of those really talented guys work on the many hundreds of tables that could be built once we get this thing working. Perhaps in time they will come round to the idea.

Rest assured that this is exactly what will happen. There were protests against railways, bicycles and cars when they were invented, but now horse carriages are just a tourist attraction.
Some people, just don't like to see FP working better or having working rom support for their own reasons, moralizing most of the time is an excuse, just like cotton producers lobby in 30s' launched public campaign to change perception of hemp to make it a dangerous narcotic and de-legalize it to protect their own income.

In my case you are dead wrong! Why wouldn't I want FP to be all that it can be? Why wouldn't I want FP to out shine VP, which in some ways it already does. My stand is entirely over what Black would want and endorse. I would love for this second that Black would come in here and say, "Do what you want, I don't mind". I really wish he would and I really wish he would open source it so these don't have to be work arounds. And you can bet your arse, I would be all over it like stink on SH*T!!!

As an author of tables, I really don't mind and have given my blessing to anybody using parts or modifying my tables. I am all for the community of pinball players. Yes in all forms!

Some author are more tight with their creations and want to grant permission. We have all learned to respect this fact, so why is it that a pinball simulator/editor should be any different? Black has dedicated unbelievable amounts of time into FP. It is his baby, one of his joys. Regardless of what everybody thinks of Black, this is his authored work, and without him condoning what you guys are doing, I think it is as bad if not worse then modifying a table without permission.

What you are saying is that if I were to build an external program or script that could alter what the author had intended the table to do without actually altering the table, this is alright. In that case, I could easily make a program that overlays anybody's table with my own graphics, hence changing it's appearence, but yet not changing the table itself. Is this right?

You are basically saying that there is no honor among thieves. Black isn't here, so lets have at it. If I condoned this, then I condon modifying tables without permission. So I cannot. It's that simple. Now you can justify it anyway you like, if it makes you feel good about it.

I assure you that my opinions on this subject are not steered by VP or FP, and I take offense to the fact that someone would say that to me. If you are someone that could/would say that to me, then you are the problem that divides the community, not me.

Sorry if you feel personally offended. I did not direct the remark at you in particular, or anybody else, or even on VirtualP comunity, It is just how it works in general every new invention changing the status quo meets with opposition.
As for your arguments. Are You Black under different nick? Or his official representative? I other case speculations about his wishes have very little meaning. He has account on VPF and can ask highrise to stop. My guess (as good as yours, I suppose) is that he does no give a damn.

On the old forum he once said that: "idiots (us) wishes mean nothing to him and that he developed FP for his own pleasure not ours".
Therefore we do not have to feel eternal gratitude for it. In the end if not for FP tables authors he would not earn a penny on it.

If he would voice his disapproval here it still would not mean that we have to listen to him. When you release a product you have to accept that people will do with it whatever they want. You do not need to ask producer of a table knife for a permission to use it as a screwdriver. There is noting in EULA preventing connecting FP to Pinmame, VPM, or hairdryer if you please.

maybe you have some bad experience with people modding your tables. IMO its OK to do with any table anything one likes, but good manners require, asking permission and crediting original author if you want to release it. But honestly even this is not as clear as it seems I doubt whether a single recreation author got the license to use a copyrighted artwork, design and sound. So in your terms it is thieves den here.

BTW If any body has moral issue with using FP differently than the author wanted us to use, it its no problem just don't play any tables with toys on them and any relaying on rom support.

If you wish to continue moral debate let's PM . Let's keep this thread on topic.
Respectfully Yours

PS I just read your edit. Respect above all in the worst case we can "agree to disagree"

Edited by sza, 26 January 2011 - 01:59 PM.

[highrise]

yes, we had the discussion, and not everyone agreed. However, what I think everyone agreed on is that essentially it is a matter of opinion, not a matter of law. And I think it's perfectly possible to respect everyone's opinion without agreeing with it.

I do feel that, having given it a lot of thought, I am not doing anything that is essentially any different than what has already been done with FP. I genuinely do not believe there is any 'moral' difference between taking all the copyrighted artwork, dmd dots, game sounds and game concepts from say, Terminator 2 and making them into a table in FP, and using a ROM to do the same. I don't believe in either case that this is what FP was intended for.

Since I am not making any changes to the actual program itself, nor using it for commercial gain, I also don't really think there is that much of a case to answer with regard to using a program in a way that it was not intended for. I accept that some people may feel they should only be doing things that get the blessing of the creator, but I think quite a lot of tables that have been made already cross that line anyway.

Here's an example. When I figured out how to copy the DMD data directly from a ROM so it could be loaded into FP as a font that was larger than the 32 x 32 font that FP was designed for, by creating a 'fake' FP font file, the FP community thought it was brilliant. Some even said "this just goes to prove we can make any game without using a rom'. It was accepted as an innovative new step for FP. However, the irony of that of course was that it WAS using a ROM - it just wasn't using a ROM 'live'. But in essence, it's the same thing - if you grab dots or record sounds from a ROM, you're using a ROM. I even said at the time 'if you use this to take DMD dots from a ROM, please make sure you credit the original artists'. Basically, you're just using a rom with an extra step. All I'm doing is removing that step.

As I have said many times - if you wish to make original tables, with all your own concepts, artwork, sounds etc, I applaud you. I believe that this is in essence what Black wanted the program to be used for. Even when you load the program it clearly says that the use of artwork, sounds etc is not condoned. In other words, if you are using artwork or sounds that are not your own, you are definitely NOT getting the blessing of the author. The only real difference is that there was clearly no way to prevent people from importing copyrighted artwork or sounds. So if you want to take that route, I respect it. However, as I've said already, I have yet to hear any compelling, logical argument as to why it is acceptable to use artwork, sounds and even parts of a ROM that are clearly not condoned by the author, and not acceptable to use a ROM directly. The only reasonable explanations I have about this are to do with it being traditionally frowned upon. But I think that is again, something based on opinion, and also an argument from another time when the community was larger, the code was being updated, and the commercial possibilities were there. I think things have changed since then. I personally think the community needs new challenges that will engage people, and I can't think of one which will do that more than this. Yes, it will ruffle feathers, and not everyone will like it, but I think I'm staying on the same side of the line as a lot of other authors before me. When people think 'ROMs' they immediately think 'hacking' - but I am absolutely 100% not hacking.

And that's really how I came to the conclusion I did. The precedents for this have already been set. I'm not doing anything that has not already been done before and accepted. It's not a leap, it's just another step on a path that has already been laid out. I think in the past you could argue that such a thing would do more harm than good. But in the here and now, having discussed it openly and honestly with careful consideration with a mature community that I believe respects the fact I have garnered opinion and given it a lot of thought - my conclusion is that it will do more good than harm.

Edited by highrise, 26 January 2011 - 02:22 PM.

[epthegeek]

All high-minded and complicated discussion aside -- I think this development is fascinating and I really hope the details get ironed out so we can see it in full implementation. Thanks for all the effort!

[rascal]

nope, you can't set the delay to zero. If you try, it gets set to 5ms. As I said, hand-holdy all the way.

Thanks for the kind words guys, though I don't think I have the support of the whole community - some think I'm hacking the program to do this, which I'm not.

I wish we were all one big happy pinball family I really do. I have no issue with anyone at all and I'd love to make peace and have some of those really talented guys work on the many hundreds of tables that could be built once we get this thing working. Perhaps in time they will come round to the idea.

Ok, HR, but somehow I think that you are still feeling strange or unsure of yourself, as with your post here. Why bring up the subject of community support again? If what you are doing is the right thing, then why question yourself? You would know that you are standing on the right side of the fence, and not have to justify it or compare it to other things similar or even ask the community to support it. The majority would be with you... and quite possibly they are, but really don't wonder, just do it.

I'm sorry if I am off topic here in a WIP thread... this is a WIP thread I take it now right? I wouldn't interrupt it if I wasn't challenged or called some kind of Anti-FPer, now Black, or his representative. I don't even know Black, we have never exchanged words. He could be the devil himself for all I care. From what I am hearing of him, he is a very opinionated guy... well ain't we all. At least he stood fast to his opinions and apparently felt good about his opinions.

I feel good about mine, right or wrong, I am confident. Now please continue and stop calling me and any others that feel like me anything other then a member of a community of pinball fanatics. This site is for everybody in the pinball community last time I looked. We have two fine programs to enjoy here for free, so what is the problem?

Edited by rascal, 26 January 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[highrise]

well, you have asked a question and I will answer it. I gave it a lot of thought and I am confident in my own opinion as I have been from the outset. Nevertheless I am aware it is a sensitive subject, for which I was banned from another site for even discussing. Those were the people I was thinking of, not you Rascal, in terms of them coming round to the idea and not considering me a pariah, which I guess I must be since they even blocked my IP!

Whatever my opinion about Fpinmame may be, or how confident I may be in my views, I think it is right, especially in this context, to want that opinion to be challenged by the community - not because I doubt my views, but because I am not so vain as to think that (a) my opinion is the only one that matters or (b) that someone may be able to change my mind. That's all.

But anyway, I am going to be busy with other stuff for a while so hopefully MoW will hold the flame till I get back.

Edited by highrise, 26 January 2011 - 03:59 PM.

[unclewilly]

well guys here is some good news!

I translated over the light numbers from Uncle Willy's Bad Cats table and tested it out, and bingo! I got pm to control the attract mode. It looked great and ran smoothly! I have recorded a short video. Note that the recording low frame rate, not the table in play. It plays at full speed.

I won't post the table itself because it's not mine - but I would like to dedicate this little video to Uncle Willy himself who has a plateful at the moment. Hope to see you back soon dude, I'm sure you will enjoy seeing me messing up your FP magnum opus

All the lights you can see in this video are being controlled by pinmame - no light code in FP at all. Enjoy the low angle view, it looks sweet!

you can post the table Al. feel free to use it for the experiments into this project you've undertaken. You can use and post any of my work. I'm just really curious to see if you can get it to work

[highrise]

thanks dude - what I will do is let manofwar post what he has done as he has been working on getting the alpha display to work. if you have time, feel free to join in. It would be interesting to get the wheel in the centre to respond to the rom as well.

[unclewilly]

i'm trying to remember how i did that in the fp table. i know it is an overlay, like a reel in vp. so if you adapt the vp script i used in my vp bad cats it should respond to the solenoid calls

[lio]

i'm really thrilled by the possibility and creativity of this development...
personally i would love to see it happen - actually i'd still love to see it happen officially with Black's support one way or another but i guess Black would still be in the "no roms" department.
i look at it as a clever/creative workaround. if i were to take a guess i'd say that it would still not please Black and that if he ever were to update fp again he'd probably try to find a way to lock out this possibility but then maybe i'm wrong... i know there was a time when he considered adding rom support to a certain degree but then changed his mind along the way.
either way: thumbs up for the creativity, it's amazing what some people come up with

[Popotte]

Glad to read you again, dear Lio...

[highrise]

hey guys

I won't post the table yet as MoW is working on some stuff. However, if you take UncleWilly's table and put it in the same directory as the control script, together with the bad cats libraries, and then use the script from the previous demo table, you can make it work. You need to replace the light control list with this:

CODE

lightarray=array(ShootAgainLight,ShootAgainLight,L2xlight,L3xlight,L4xlight,L5xlight,L6xlight
,L7xlight,fishbonuslight,bw50klight,bw100klight,bw200klight,bwumlight,bw20mlight,
tlight,olight,ylight,walltlight,wallolight,wallylight,fbflasher2,GF30klight,GF50k
light,GF100klight,GFExtraBlight,bbqlight,birdlight,leftoutlight,rightoutlight,rat
light,doghouselight,doghouselight,doghouselight,blight,alight,dlight,clight,a2lig
ht,t3light,slight,guitarlight,SF1light,SF2light,SF3light,SF4light,SF5light,SF6lig
ht,SF7light,SF8light,fish25klight,fish50k,fish75k,fish100k,fish500klight,gi50,BGF
BLight,candle,BG1Million,BG2Million,BG3Million,BG4Million,BG5Million,BG6Million,B
G7Million,BG8Million)

- which is how you define the all the lights in the table. light zero is not used, so then there are 64 others in this case. The control script will send data to FP to control these lights. The order of these lights is basically the same as the light numbers in the manual. Obviously for this table UncleWilly names his lights to help him remember them when scripting, but in future, when building a table specifically for fpinmame use, you would name your lights l01,l01l01 etc, much like in Vpinmame, to make it easier to match up to the rom.

The only other thing you would need to do is put something in the script to make the credit hud on the Bad Cats table fade out.

One thing I did was set the light in the fishbowl to control the flasher - I don't know if there is a separate light in the real table - the flasher seems to flash quite a lot so perhaps this is the case.

Edited by highrise, 26 January 2011 - 09:45 PM.

[sza]

hey guys

I won't post the table yet as MoW is working on some stuff. However, if you take UncleWilly's table and put it in the same directory as the control script, together with the bad cats libraries, and then use the script from the previous demo table, you can make it work. You need to replace the light control list with this:

CODE

lightarray=array(ShootAgainLight,ShootAgainLight,L2xlight,L3xlight,L4xlight,L5xlight,L6xlight
,L7xlight,fishbonuslight,bw50klight,bw100klight,bw200klight,bwumlight,bw20mlight
,
tlight,olight,ylight,walltlight,wallolight,wallylight,fbflasher2,GF30klight,GF50
k
light,GF100klight,GFExtraBlight,bbqlight,birdlight,leftoutlight,rightoutlight,ra
t
light,doghouselight,doghouselight,doghouselight,blight,alight,dlight,clight,a2li
g
ht,t3light,slight,guitarlight,SF1light,SF2light,SF3light,SF4light,SF5light,SF6li
g
ht,SF7light,SF8light,fish25klight,fish50k,fish75k,fish100k,fish500klight,gi50,BG
F
BLight,candle,BG1Million,BG2Million,BG3Million,BG4Million,BG5Million,BG6Million,
B
G7Million,BG8Million)

- which is how you define the all the lights in the table. light zero is not used, so then there are 64 others in this case. The control script will send data to FP to control these lights. The order of these lights is basically the same as the light numbers in the manual. Obviously for this table UncleWilly names his lights to help him remember them when scripting, but in future, when building a table specifically for fpinmame use, you would name your lights l01,l01l01 etc, much like in Vpinmame, to make it easier to match up to the rom.

The only other thing you would need to do is put something in the script to make the credit hud on the Bad Cats table fade out.

One thing I did was set the light in the fishbowl to control the flasher - I don't know if there is a separate light in the real table - the flasher seems to flash quite a lot so perhaps this is the case.

Good to hear that lites work fine with more complicated pin.
Did you get MoW FP->Pinmame working?
I could not make it work on my system: maybe because I have two screen setup.
Just one more stream up (for solenoids), and I could try to implement it on some early SS.

Edited by sza, 26 January 2011 - 10:40 PM.

[highrise]

one way to know if the system is working is to open up notepad. If it is 'broadcasting' you will see the number 1 getting typed a lot.

as for an early SS, I would be glad to try and get one working. I have permission to use the Mata Hari table that is on this site. If you would like to help with that, then what you could do is figure out how all the light numbers should be named, and a list of all the targets and switches with the correct numbers from the rom. If you would be able to do that, I think we could figure out a way to get that two-way communication going, and then we would have our first true fpinmame table

[highrise]

I know MoW is still working on the display but I thought you might like another video. He set it up now so the whole thing can be run from a single script, which means eventually it could be put into a front end. It's a bit slow to load on my machine, but in this longer vid you can see it booting up, with the alpha display, and I change the angle a few times as well. I was able to enter credits as well, although they didn't show up until later. Nevertheless, it did work, so FP is talking to the rom to some degree.

I'm really happy with the progress, I'm just sorry I'm going to be so busy over the next month. Hopefully MoW will make more progress.

Attached Files

•  bcatsplusdisplay.rar   6.35MB   70 downloads

[rehab]

Very nice! Thanks for the vid!

[Crazy DarnFool Duck]

Seems like a glitter of hope. Keep going and you'll make it a dream come true.

(runs off to play Bookworm Adventures)

[highrise]

sorry guys this isn't an update! well, not one you want - I am studying this month and so have no time at all for my hobbies. But I will see what I can do next month. Hopefully Man of War will continue!

[lio]

i wish you a lot of success with that then - and i am looking forward to see what might happen when you come back refreshed after a break from this

[Greywolf]

i'm really thrilled by the possibility and creativity of this development...
personally i would love to see it happen - actually i'd still love to see it happen officially with Black's support one way or another but i guess Black would still be in the "no roms" department.
i look at it as a clever/creative workaround. if i were to take a guess i'd say that it would still not please Black and that if he ever were to update fp again he'd probably try to find a way to lock out this possibility but then maybe i'm wrong... i know there was a time when he considered adding rom support to a certain degree but then changed his mind along the way.
either way: thumbs up for the creativity, it's amazing what some people come up with

It would be a truly sad statement if Black were to update FP solely to remove that possibility without addressing the other issues which actually affect gameplay and realism...

[user42]

This is great! I look forward to FP rom support.

Edited by user42, 03 February 2012 - 04:35 PM.