23 replies to this topic

[deadmanworking]

After hearing reports that people are getting good results using the VPX 10.8.1 BGFX beta on the table Dark Chaos, I decided to take the plunge and try the software (even though many still recommend against it). In order not to compromise my working VPX 10.8 (2051) (GL) install I tried a minimally invasive install by only extracting the BGFX .exe and the included .dlls (backing up the existing ones first). Not the plugins folder, scripts folder or anything else in the release .zip.

 

*NOTE: it is NOT RECOMMENDED by the devs to do this since 10.8.1 is supposed to be fully modular and separate from previous installs. Do not try this at home or risk messing up your install! Backup early, backup often

 

After launching the program, since the beta and stable versions now share settings/configuration, I only had to give 10.8.1 my backglass monitor dimensions and off to the races. 

There are many reports on backglasses not working consistently on the beta and I encountered that as well, but I found a workaround by launching the tables through the frontend PinballX - this loaded the backglass correctly, also taking into account individual .res files as well, no clue yet why that is but IT WORKS. 

PUPpacks, colorized DMDs and everything else work as expected like in the 10.8 stable version with all settings preserved. 

 

Then, I started testing tables to find out which tables work better with the beta and which ones don’t (sometimes don’t even start at all.) As it looks like we’re still some ways off from a stable 10.8.1 version, I’m collecting a few notes here that might help others figure out how to get the best performance out of the existing software, and will continue to update as I work through my table list. 

 

In general, it’s very hard to make general statements about what will perform better in any of the versions for example while Dark Chaos, a script-heavy original table that suffered incredible slowdown when the flashers activate during multiball on 10.8, performed much better in BGFX, some others like Cyber Race or John Wick didn’t improve at all in the beta version. Also, with VPW and other high-end releases it was a totally mixed bag, older VPW tables like Cactus Canyon and even current releases like Stargate or Creature from the Black Lagoon showed marked improvements (from latency 2-3ms to 1ms or even 0.5ms at super stable frame rates), some others, like Die Hard or F-14 Tomcat, performed worse or in a way that they became unplayable. A few other tables didn’t launch at all.

 

Conclusion: I will keep using the beta since it seems about 75-80% of the tables are performing equally good or better. The tables that do not I am setting to launch with alternative EXE of the stable 10.8 in the frontend. 

I will continue testing more tables and update the list, in the meantime any further feedback is welcome! 

 

System: 27’’ GIGABYTE OLED running at 2560x1440 @ 120Hz, Freesync ON, capped at 116fps; AMD FX8350; ASUS Geforce 3060 12GB

 

Comparing 2 baseline configurations, both set at Dynamic AO, Dynamic Reflections and unlimited texture size: 

VPX 10.8.0 (2051) 64bit release version (GL version, frame pacing) and

VPX 10.8.1 (3788) 64bit release version (BGFX version) 

+

VPinMAME 3.7.0(46) beta  (but VPinMAME 3.6.0(1227) is fine as well)

B2SServer v2.1.3

FlexDMD 1.9.1 & DMDext 2.3.1 & SERUM 2.3.1

Pinupplayer 1.4.5

PinballX 6.95 & PinballX Database Manager 25.10.28.0

 

The following tables did not perform well on the 10.8.1 beta: 

AC/DC LUCI (VPW): table doesn’t launch, script error in line 1019

America’s Most Haunted (PAPA Version): occasional heavy slowdowns 

Centaur: table does not launch

Dracula (VPW): some skipping and frame drops as the game progresses

Die Hard (VPW): bad performance issues, weird lighting.

F-14 Tomcat (VPW): stuttering

Fathom: table does not launch

Fish Tales (VPW): frame rate going down to between 60-90fps, extremely laggy

Guns n’Roses (VPW): some stutter as the game progresses

Iron Maiden Legacy of the Beast (VPW): Occasional ball teleports / lags

Last Action Hero (VPW): inconsistent performance during multiball / when many lights are active

Medieval Madness (VPW): ball stuttering when flashers active, would only run well in 10.8 with frame pacing / sync turned off as per VPW recommendation

Medusa: table does not launch

Metallica (VPW): slowdowns & stuttering

Monster Bash (VPW): slight skipping/stuttering

Terminator 3 (Siggi/Tastywasps Mod): heavy slowdowns and frame drops

Tron Legacy (VPW): slight latency issues as game progresses

Whirlwind 4K: performs well, but occasionally parts of the apron and upper playfield become transparent for a few seconds

 

The following tables performed better or equally on 10.8.1 beta (stable frame rate 116 fps, latency 0.5 to 1ms):

Attack From Mars

Avengers Pro

Bad Cats (VPW)

Batman (VPW)

Batman The Dark Knight

Big Bang Bar (VPW)

Black Rose (VPW)

Blood Machines (VPW)

Cactus Canyon (VPW)

Congo (VPW)

Creature from the Black Lagoon (VPW)

Cyclone

Dark Chaos

Deadpool

Diner (VPW)

Earthshaker (VPW)

Game of Thrones (VPW)

Goldeneye (VPW)

High Speed

Indiana Jones The Pinball Adventure (VPW)

Judge Dredd (VPW)

Jurassic Park

Kingpin

Lethal Weapon 3 (VPW)

NBA Fastbreak (VPW)

No Fear (VPW)

No Good Gofers

Playboy (Stern)

Police Force (VPW)

Radical (VPW)

Red & Ted’s Road Show (VPW

Scared Stiff (VPW)

Seawitch

Spider Man Siggi’s Mod (VPW)

SpongeBob's Bikini Bottom Pinball (VPW)

Star Trek LE

Star Trek TNG (VPW)

Star Wars (VPW)

Star Wars Trilogy

Stargate (VPW)

Starship Troopers (VPW)

Stranger Things

Swords of Fury

Tales of the Arabian Nights

Taxi

Terminator 2 (g5k)

The Flintstones

The Getaway

The Shadow

The Sopranos

The Lord of the Rings Valinor Edition (VPW)

The Walking Dead LE (flupper)

Theatre of Magic

Total Nuclear Annihilation (VPW)

Transformers Pro

White Water

World Cup Soccer (VPW)

Edited by deadmanworking, 31 October 2025 - 06:51 PM.

[Thalamus]

I advice people not to follow your way of testing this. IT IS NOT how the devs recommends. 10.8.x is now designed to be released NOT mixing with any of the previous releases. So, extracting the FULL archive to its own folder and taking regular backups of ie VPinballX.ini is the better way.

 

Are you correct on your observations. Sure, in many cases. My experience though is that db2s is/was solved over at least 1 mnd ago. You needing to do tricks is a sign of "luck". 10.8.x is still under heavy development where things like db2s, zedmd etc. Is supposed to become modular.

 

It is kind of dangerous posting this in that many might be tempted to try your method ... I guess. But, ok - be just very aware that the above is NOT the way recommended by the guys that actually know what they are doing.

[deadmanworking]

Fair enough Thalamus, I hear you. Probably not a bad idea to add a disclaimer to not try this at home.. 

 

For me it's a way of gathering A/B data and using more performant software I would otherwise not try to install in the current state risking my working setup, so a bit getting ahead of the curve without too big a risk. 

 

I understand the modular nature of the upcoming version and the state it's in, but if you give me the choice of just adding a few files and playing in the existing framework versus doing a completely new install of VPX and all associated components with uncertain outcome, I'm doing the first - and let's be honest, don't you agree that tinkering with software, settings and files is at the heart of Virtual Pinball to begin with? Maybe sometimes a bit of luck as well  

 

In any case, thanks for your input.

[Thalamus]

I absolutely don't want to stop you experimenting. I think you already know that you are on thin ice. But, you have to remember that you would not take these steps if you had not; at least to yourself the confidence that you knew how to get back to a working system.

 

These forums have many that are NOT able to understand some of your steps fully. But, I can assure you, some will try and break their working installation. New stuff, is best kept at github to be perfectly honest. Away from the regular user. If you are advanced, then please join the team of guys that do run the very latest the intended way and give feedback on that instead of experimenting and posting "bad" behavior. It might change the next day.

 

Yes, sure, make a HUGE disclaimer You are NOT wrong in your current findings, so, that is good I guess

[htamas]

Regarding performance problems like stuttering (whether it's with the stable or beta version), I think part of the problem may be your CPU. I was running an AMD FX8320 in my previous rig, and also had such issues on "heavier" tables. All those were gone when I switched to my current config, based on a Ryzen 5 5600 processor and an RX 6600 GPU. Far from a really powerful setup, but any performance-related issues were solved. I'm only playing in 1080p and 60Hz, so I imagine your 2K setup is even more affected.

Edited by htamas, 31 October 2025 - 06:50 PM.

[deadmanworking]

@htamas oh yes that thing is ANCIENT. That's why I'm not reaching beyong 120Hz even though the monitor can do double.
I'm eyeing a 5700x3d upgrade kit myself but dreading the full re-install on the new mobo, so I'm trying to wring everything from the current setup and to be honest the BGFX architecture is interesting precisely because of that, bringing much better performance to weaker systems. 

 

@Thalamus gotcha - I added a disclaimer, and you're right: I'm fairly confident in restoring the system at any time due to a robust backup scheme but I'm aware not everyone has that. The last I would want is more people with broken systems seeking help on the forum, rather the intention was to help give perspective to people with weaker systems what the new versions might bring. But I guess you're right, there's good reasons these are still under wraps / not publicly supported. Will keep this in mind in the future. 

[Emanoel299]

Hi

 

I don't understand because, in my point of view, I use a poor setup and all the tables run at least at 120 FPS.
I always shows my basic configuration for cabinet mode:

I7 3770

MB H61

16 GB DDR3

SSD 480 GB

PS 750W

GTX 1660 6GB TI and SUPER

 

3 screens

 

TV 2D - BackGlass - 60 Hz

Monitor 2D - DMD - 60 Hz

TV 3D - Playfield - 60 Hz

 

VPX 10.80 - 2051 GL

 

I always play in 3D mode and it is very hard for the system

 

 

I agree that for TV 2D 4K 60 Hz playfield I lost FPS. Maybe 120 Hz is the worst.

Anyway it deppends on untill many peopleo like play.

 

I tested any VPX version installing in a different folder. I never had problem with this procedure. It is safe.

If the test is OK, I change my frontend Vpinball.exe folder to a new better version and so on.

 

 

Edited by Emanoel299, Yesterday, 02:26 AM.

[bigus1]

Forcing the GPU to cram 4000x4000 pixel images into 100x100 physical screen pixels 100 times a second across dozens of images is what kills performance, and all for no gain.  If those guys were making racing games, everyone in the grandstand would have individual faces and the cars would move like turtles because of it.  Blindly upscaling every graphic is the main problem - not the software.

Sure, the wealthy can just pour bucks into the problem to make it go away and then tell us that all we need to do is upgrade our lives if we want have a little fun, when a little restraint is all that's needed

[deadmanworking]

Emanoel, thanks for your input, your system isn't that weak, I was running a 1660 Super until quite recently and it's very capable, also your processor while old is still much more performant than my almost 15 years old one.. in any case, when I was still running on 1080p the higher fps were no problem, switching to 1440p is obviously a big step requiring almost double the performance. What I don't get however what do you mean that tables run at 120fps if you only have 60Hz displays? As far as I know exceeding your physical Hz rate would not give you any advantages, I'd rather expect performance issues in that case?

[Emanoel299]

Emanoel, thanks for your input, your system isn't that weak, I was running a 1660 Super until quite recently and it's very capable, also your processor while old is still much more performant than my almost 15 years old one.. in any case, when I was still running on 1080p the higher fps were no problem, switching to 1440p is obviously a big step requiring almost double the performance. What I don't get however what do you mean that tables run at 120fps if you only have 60Hz displays? As far as I know exceeding your physical Hz rate would not give you any advantages, I'd rather expect performance issues in that case?

Yeah!!

 

The monitor Frame Rate is 60 Hz but the VPX is 120 FPS processing when pressing F11.

Maybe there is a confusion betwenn FRAME RATE and FRAME PER SECONDS. They are different things.

 

From Google AI.

 

"FPS (frames per second) measures the number of frames a GPU generates,

while Hz (hertz) measures the refresh rate of a display, or how many times a monitor can update its image per second".

 

The lag or scutters come from FPS (GPU or CPU bottleneck).

The monitor frame will only show the image quality. Better, smooth or brightness.

I have one system with TV LG 42LM6400 - 120 HZ Frame rate (It is not 120 Hz for resolution as most OLED TV)

That one TV is better than TV LG 42LA6200 - 60 HZ Frame rate

 

Other point is:

 

I use to play with a simple PS3 input board only.

I have no DOF and their especific input/output cards. It is very expensive. Almost the whole cabinet system here in Brazil.

Maybe for many setups, it causes loss performance I suppose.

 

I believe that Desktop mode with DX9 could be easy for most systems.

Anyway It is very good to know that BGFX could be a good solution for low end cabinet systems.

[deadmanworking]

Yes, exactly that's why I'm asking why you are running 120fps if your display can only show 60 frames, as that can give you no benefit, rather I'd expect disadvantages in performance if you don't sync to your monitor's frame rate. But maybe I'm missing something with the 3d setup?

 

In any case, every system can create unexpected bottlenecks, I've heard people talking about Virtual DMD causing massive slowdown or certain B2s backglasses, both of which never affected me. My only intention is to put out more information on my specific configuration which might help someone down the line identify their own issues more easily. 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input!

[Tesla]

I only got a couple, but some of those VPW Tables seem heavy with VR code and VR media-resources now.

 

How does that work? I didn't really see any Options in the script to turn-it off or bypass VR. Is it using up CPU-cycles and resources for all of us?

 

If so, has there been any talk to branch the more popular tables between 2 versions:

1. VR (and optimized for high-end systems)

2. Cabinet, DOF, 2K (and even 4K) ... ie, more normal computer systems

 

Additionally, are the VPX developers moving to Open-GL instead of advancing to next version past DirectX-9 ?

Seems like finally moving to the next gaming-API could optimize the performance of the runtime-app.

Not knocking what they are going one bit ... as getting the whole environment to 64-bit first seems like an obvious progression. Just wondering.

Edited by Tesla, Yesterday, 05:35 PM.

[Tesla]

Forcing the GPU to cram 4000x4000 pixel images into 100x100 physical screen pixels 100 times a second across dozens of images is what kills performance, and all for no gain.  If those guys were making racing games, everyone in the grandstand would have individual faces and the cars would move like turtles because of it.  Blindly upscaling every graphic is the main problem - not the software.

Sure, the wealthy can just pour bucks into the problem to make it go away and then tell us that all we need to do is upgrade our lives if we want have a little fun, when a little restraint is all that's needed

 

I think there are any-number of settings (both in VPX video-options and in Nvidia/AMD video control-panels) that could optimize VPX game-play ... with little perceivable change in image and/or animation quality. 

 

I see little talk on the forums about that kind of thing.

 

It reminds me of "yeah, your system is good, but can it run Crysis". It was very pretty (and on the cutting edge) but their game-engine was well-known to be poorly optimized. Just sayin.

Edited by Tesla, Yesterday, 05:58 PM.

[deadmanworking]

@tesla nope, in fact with 10.8 VR was reintegrated in to the application. If you're using desktop or cabinet mode, anything in the code regarding VR will not concern you as it's only in use when using VR mode.
And the upcoming switch to BGFX will make different versions DX/GL obsolete since any graphics framework can then be tethered in. (in fact with the beta I'm using neither OpenGL nor Directx, but Vulkan.)

[Tesla]

@tesla nope, in fact with 10.8 VR was reintegrated in to the application. If you're using desktop or cabinet mode, anything in the code regarding VR will not concern you as it's only in use when using VR mode.
And the upcoming switch to BGFX will make different versions DX/GL obsolete since any graphics framework can then be tethered in. (in fact with the beta I'm using neither OpenGL nor Directx, but Vulkan.)

 

OK, I'll trust you on the VR statements <smile>

 

Oh, I see:

 

https://www.vpforums...showtopic=53495

 

https://bkaradzic.gi...x/overview.html

 

Ambitious is the best word I can think of. Hopefully, the key-developers are young and have plenty of time on their hands.

I think I'm just going to hang-back, play my existing pinball cabinet, and let yall work it out.

Edited by Tesla, Yesterday, 06:14 PM.

[Emanoel299]

@tesla nope, in fact with 10.8 VR was reintegrated in to the application. If you're using desktop or cabinet mode, anything in the code regarding VR will not concern you as it's only in use when using VR mode.
And the upcoming switch to BGFX will make different versions DX/GL obsolete since any graphics framework can then be tethered in. (in fact with the beta I'm using neither OpenGL nor Directx, but Vulkan.)

I use play only with OpenGL because is better way to play in a real 3D mode.

No way real 3D mode with DX.

I Hope that BGFX be so good as OpenGL is for real 3D mode

I tested with 2D in a 100 Hz monitor. The image looks a bit better than openGL.

lets see what happen in real 3D mode.

I think that there will be no differences.

Edited by Emanoel299, Today, 12:02 AM.

[Tesla]

I use play only with OpenGL because is better way to play in a real 3D mode.

No way real 3D mode with DX.

I Hope that BGFX be so good as OpenGL is for real 3D mode

I tested with 2D in a 100 Hz monitor. The image looks a bit better than openGL.

lets see what happen in real 3D mode.

I think that there will be no differences.

 

 

What is Real-3D-Mode exactly?

[bigus1]

Even a cursory glance at the OP's list reveals that the laggy tables are mainly post upscaling frenzy and I guess my advice is not discussed because folks are probably unaware it's an issue.

Whether or not you hate me, I have vast experience in table building and I have personally implemented what I have recommended, but you can take advice from anyone you like.

I've fixed my laggy tables, so I'm not talking theory here. There are other sources of lag but, in my experience, oversized images is the most common with too-fast timers coming second.

[deadmanworking]

No worries bigus, a few of your tables were included in the list and they behaved well in both versions so kudos there. 

 

The point of this comparison is less about performance or lag in general, but on the diverging performance differences between stable and beta version. 

Why do certain tables work well in stable but fall apart in the beta, while for around 80% of the remaining tables the performance is equal or better in the beta?

 

The next step would be find out what settings to apply in order to make it work anyhow. 

Most users will only have the possibility to tweak the software, not the tables themselves.

So while we wait for table creators to update tables we can still take steps to make things playable on our end. 

 

..you might notice that the post started with me wanting to get Dark Chaos to run, which was impossible on the stable version but worked out even with a weak system in BGFX. 

So that's what it's about, getting more out of less  

[bigus1]

My angle is that it's a problem with any platform and to expect the software to pick-up the pieces of bad design is hardly a reasonable solution or expectation of the devs to fix, especially when the offending problem provides no benefit anyway.  If the problem was across the board then the software would deserve the scrutiny, but I don't know the value in determining which version is best at coping with error.