69 replies to this topic

[Kiwikid]

Hi there,

 

I have been searching trying to find some real world advice on is the difference noticeable going from 60hz to 120hz in 4K? 

Obviously there is the additional cost with screen and PC which i,m aware as I am looking at a 43" Asus Rog XG438Q 4k 120hz as an option and have a spare GTX1080Ti card but is the cost worthwhile or does VPX/ FX3 play just as well on both?

I have have only ever seen a 1080p 60Hz setup briefly so have nothing to go on.

 

Thanks 

[nromo]

120HZ will have less motion blur, but honestly, I don't know how beneficial this is to pinball, given that only the ball moves much. It would obviously be far more important in FPS games simulators and such. I'm like you though. I've been looking at the latest LG 120Hz native displays for playfield. Price is through the roof though! Someone needs to post an in depth study on this! 

Like this beauty here...

 

Amazon.com: LG OLED48CXPUB Alexa Built-In CX 48" 4K Smart OLED TV (2020): Electronics

Edited by nromo, 22 April 2021 - 12:55 AM.

[wiesshund]

Hi there,

 

I have been searching trying to find some real world advice on is the difference noticeable going from 60hz to 120hz in 4K? 

Obviously there is the additional cost with screen and PC which i,m aware as I am looking at a 43" Asus Rog XG438Q 4k 120hz as an option and have a spare GTX1080Ti card but is the cost worthwhile or does VPX/ FX3 play just as well on both?

I have have only ever seen a 1080p 60Hz setup briefly so have nothing to go on.

 

Thanks 

 

If you take a PC with a 120Hz screen, that is able to maintain at least 120fps at all times

And sit it beside a PC with a 60Hz screen, that is able to maintain at least 60Hz at all times

AND

Both monitors are of otherwise comparable image quality, response time, and input patency

You may well not know what difference you are supposed to be looking for.

You aren't terribly aware of 120th of a second in your frontal color vision (but you are in your peripheral non color vision though you dont quite process it as an image per se)

 

It depends very much on what two screens you stick side by side.
It also depends on how you feed the two screens
if you throw an unthrottled 312fps at a 60Hz screen, you may well notice more shear and tear going on (You might perceive that as ball stutter, while still having really high FPS)

because there is a lot more opportunity for out of sync frames than the 120Hz monitor.

But  if both are running locked to refresh (V-Sync ON) then neither should be having any of that going on.

 

If you can afford a 120Hz screen (A GOOD one, there are bad ones, many bad ones, and they ghost like hell cause the pixels are not switching crisp and cleanly)
AND your video card can maintain 120fps or MORE (the or more part is important, you need head room)
Then go ahead and get one if you want, just do not be disappointed if you do not notice some huge boon (Aside from the fact that being newer, it may have a better picture than what it replaced)

 

Now on the other hand, if you find that your video can not hold 120fps consistently across all of your tables, then you are better off sticking with a 60Hz screen
And 60Hz does not mean shitty image quality.

 

Reason being, one of two things will happen

 

Either the monitor will be of the free-sync kind and the monitor tries to adapt to differing frame rates
That is great in theory, but any given monitor gets it's best response time and input latency at it's optimal refresh rate.
When it deviates from that, those values change.

If you just run a 120Hz screen at 60Hz, its response time and latency might go into the toilet, depending on how good you are at pinball, that might piss you off to no end
cause it feels like your flippers are working in a different universe that has different laws of time.

 

Now if the monitor does not free-sync or it is disabled, and you dont downsize it's refresh rate, and the video card is putting out uner 120fps

the frames coming in out of sync will tend to not look so great, how much depends on how far off spec they are wandering
kind of like feeding 300fps to a 60Hz monitor, except the shredding is not going as fast.
End result is you dont feel good about the screen you just bought, even though it may well be a very good screen.

 

Find what fps you can maintain on your worst tables
Then get a screen that natively runs at that or less and has really good image quality, as well as low response time and input latency.

If you can, go find one on display someplace and try get them to let you demo it on a laptop you could load some screen demo utilities on

that way you can see image quality 1st hand, rather than inside someone else's mouth, because you are the one that has to look at it.

 

If you find that 60Hz is what it will be for you, dont even remotely feel bummed out, just get a really good 60Hz screen
Once you got it all set up  and adjusted, your not really going to know the difference.

 

As for knowing what your fps is going to be at 4k
You can put that 1080Ti into 4k virtual resolution, it will be the same load as if using a real 4k screen
(you will also get some definition improvement, so you will get a bit of a hint on the 4k image improvement)

 

Not sure what you are using now, but i take it that it is not even 1080p?

If that is the case, trust me, you'll poop your britches even with a 60Hz screen just on the shear difference in image alone

PS
I was looking at some ratings on the 1080Ti
It does 4k just fine, but it looks like it is in the 60fps range at 4k

Nice and smooth 60fps, not some barely hanging in there fps, but it is not 120fps or more

 

Granted that is with some of the AAA games out there
VPX i am not sure if would pull the fps down quite as much or not, but it probably wont be holding 120fps

and youd probably like the eye candy and FSAA on

Edited by wiesshund, 22 April 2021 - 05:46 AM.

[scutters]

I run 4k @ 120hz on an Acer predator cg437kp using a GTX1080 (with gysnc enabled)

 

Is it a noticeable difference to 4k @ 60hz?.   Yes, it foes feel a lot smoother to me. If you get used to it you won't want to go back to 60hz. 

 

If you can afford it, do it. Use gsync if you can to handle any fps drops on heavy tables.

 

Otherwise 60hz is just fine 

[Kiwikid]

Wow thanks for your responses guys!! Weisshund I appricate the in-depth answer. 

I do not have anything running at this stage and am in the process of piecing together all the parts, i think based on what you have said i will save some money for now and go 60hz and i can upgrade later if i feel its required.

Now to work out what screen to get! haha

[freneticamnesic]

I just recently upgraded from 1080p 60hz to 1440p 144hz and it's fricken night and day. I would never go back to 60hz. I think if anything over 120hz is an option for you, do it. 60hz is dead to me.

 

edit: I personally believe FPS > resolution. 2K is just fine for pinball. Most of the resources aren't in higher resolution anyways so you're just upscaling. That will change but you're talking about performance vs. quality and I wouldn't sacrifice performance.

Edited by freneticamnesic, 22 April 2021 - 07:23 AM.

[wiesshund]

I just recently upgraded from 1080p 60hz to 1440p 144hz and it's fricken night and day. I would never go back to 60hz. I think if anything over 120hz is an option for you, do it. 60hz is dead to me.

think its the 1080 to 1440 that got ya

i put my 1440 beside a 1080 and im like umm but wait, that was full HD LOL

 

does not even matter if the picture is moving, it's like major different, like you say.
Especially if you display something with lots of diagonals and curves.

 

And then you kick in the HDR and it's like Wow, the colors

 

Dont put it beside a 720p screen, it makes you cry LOL

[Thalamus]

 

This does apply to your cabinet too.

Edited by Thalamus, 22 April 2021 - 10:18 AM.

[toxie]

Note that this is not "just" about the better rendering/motion, but also input lag will be reduced when going to higher Hz, especially/mostly when having VSync enabled though.

[ItchyRobot]

I just recently upgraded from 1080p 60hz to 1440p 144hz and it's fricken night and day. I would never go back to 60hz. I think if anything over 120hz is an option for you, do it. 60hz is dead to me.

 

edit: I personally believe FPS > resolution. 2K is just fine for pinball. Most of the resources aren't in higher resolution anyways so you're just upscaling. That will change but you're talking about performance vs. quality and I wouldn't sacrifice performance.

Which monitor did you go with. I am looking to go 1440p/144hz too, but I am having a tough time deciding on a play field monitor.

[nromo]

With 1440p I believe the biggest is 32 inch. Any bigger and you'd want 4K anyway. This one below is the one I was looking at. It's not curved. Most are.  But I still think bigger is better for pinball. My 27" is too small in portrait for my liking. It's also a 1440p 144Hz and yes, it looks awesome! 

 

 Amazon.com: "LG 32GK650F-B 32" QHD Gaming Monitor with 144Hz Refresh Rate and Radeon FreeSync Technology", black: Computers & Accessories

[freneticamnesic]

I got one of the LG 27" that pivots, this is my desktop PC but it's where I play the most. https://www.amazon.c...r_wdg_tit_nw_mr

I chose an LG because of their options would pivot 90 degrees (for pinball, of course)

 

At a proper playfield size I don't think you'll get better than 120hz which should be fine as well but I'm not ready to upgrade yet, I'd want to rebuild my cab around whatever TV I get

 

 

I just recently upgraded from 1080p 60hz to 1440p 144hz and it's fricken night and day. I would never go back to 60hz. I think if anything over 120hz is an option for you, do it. 60hz is dead to me.

 

edit: I personally believe FPS > resolution. 2K is just fine for pinball. Most of the resources aren't in higher resolution anyways so you're just upscaling. That will change but you're talking about performance vs. quality and I wouldn't sacrifice performance.

Which monitor did you go with. I am looking to go 1440p/144hz too, but I am having a tough time deciding on a play field monitor.

 

[wiesshund]

With 1440p I believe the biggest is 32 inch. Any bigger and you'd want 4K anyway. This one below is the one I was looking at. It's not curved. Most are.  But I still think bigger is better for pinball. My 27" is too small in portrait for my liking. It's also a 1440p 144Hz and yes, it looks awesome! 

 

 Amazon.com: "LG 32GK650F-B 32" QHD Gaming Monitor with 144Hz Refresh Rate and Radeon FreeSync Technology", black: Computers & Accessories

 

That is a nice one

I got this one
Amazon.com: LG 32QN600-B 32-Inch QHD (2560 x 1440) IPS Monitor with HDR 10, AMD FreeSync with Dual HDMI Inputs, Black: Computers & Accessories

 

I was going to get a pivoting VESA stand but opted not to because i decided i was not entirely thrilled with cab mode that stood straight up and down

i tried it out for a bit doing this (phone takes crappy pics)

 

But i decided that i would rather lay it down more akin to it being in a cab
so i cut a kind of ramp type thing from dense styrofoam, then i just move the backglass screen up where it (playfield) is sitting in that pic.

I dont think you will have any view angle issues, i can look at this thing from damned near sideways, way more sideways than i would consider playing anything ever

and the color and contrast on that panel is great

 

You should not have any input latency issues with that, i am not with the K600

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with 27" though.
If i get around to assembling a mini cab, it is going to be 26 or 27"
720p 1280x768
Not because that is what i think the best screen is, but because i found that the antique hardware i tossed together can run that rez all day long with out the frame rate dropping and with out turning off any video options
and it only looks bad, if i stick it beside something else LOL

[BrandonLaw]

120HZ will have less motion blur, but honestly, I don't know how beneficial this is to pinball, given that only the ball moves much. It would obviously be far more important in FPS games simulators and such. I'm like you though. I've been looking at the latest LG 120Hz native displays for playfield. Price is through the roof though! Someone needs to post an in depth study on this! 

Like this beauty here...

 

Amazon.com: LG OLED48CXPUB Alexa Built-In CX 48" 4K Smart OLED TV (2020): Electronics

 

I play on a ROG PG43UQ and I picked up the panel for 1100$.  There is NO comparison on 120+ fps setup and married to correct hardware. (I only don't play at 144hz because you lose pixel depth and the panel works twice as hard to achieve those 20 frames...almost cheats them into existence.)  I will NEVER go back to 60fps.  No YouTube video can do it justice and the element needs to be experienced.  We are playing Pinball....every millisecond matters if you're serious.

 

Upgrade if you can. 

 

That's my study.

Edited by BrandonLaw, 25 April 2021 - 10:30 AM.

[cv2065]

From what I've read, people can detect smoothness in a moving object up to 90Hz and 200fps is virtually looking at real life movement, so there's not much headroom after that.

[wiesshund]

From what I've read, people can detect smoothness in a moving object up to 90Hz and 200fps is virtually looking at real life movement, so there's not much headroom after that.

just an fyi
90hz is 90fps
If you feed 200fps at the GPU to a panel that runs at 90hz (which is 90 redraws per second) only 90 out of the 200 frames are being drawn
so you are only seeing 90fps even though the GPU says it is seeing 200fps

Confusing isnt it

[nromo]

So now the question is???

 

For 1500.00 USD  you can get either the

 

-  Amazon.com: LG OLED48CXPUB 48 inch CX 4K Smart OLED TV with AI ThinQ 2020 Bundle with TaskRabbit Installation Services + Deco Gear Wall Mount + HDMI Cables + Surge Adapter: Electronics

or

- ASUS ROG Swift PG43UQ 43" 16:9 144 Hz Gaming Monitor PG43UQ B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

 

Which one is better for pinball. OLED or VA LCD Panel?

Edited by nromo, 26 April 2021 - 11:37 AM.

[ludovids]

Disregarding any differences in quality, 43" is about max width for a standard wide body cabinet. So I would get something 43", rather than 48".

[cv2065]

 

From what I've read, people can detect smoothness in a moving object up to 90Hz and 200fps is virtually looking at real life movement, so there's not much headroom after that.

just an fyi
90hz is 90fps
If you feed 200fps at the GPU to a panel that runs at 90hz (which is 90 redraws per second) only 90 out of the 200 frames are being drawn
so you are only seeing 90fps even though the GPU says it is seeing 200fps

Confusing isnt it

 

[GrbJimmy]

Before I started building my Cab I experimented for months with different resolutions, refresh rates, etc..  I play a lot of real pinball throughout the week so I wanted something that felt real or as close to it as it could.  I determined that refresh rate is where it's at.  Running synched at 120hz at 2k gives a very realistic experience.  4k honestly doesn't look that much different and if you have to run at 60hz then it loses some realism.  Once you get used to the higher refresh you can't go back, it is night and day