452 replies to this topic

[freneticamnesic]

Haha this thread is funny. Let's not perpetuate any rumors or drama.

 

To be honest I'm surprised he kept the site up this long.

 

I always wanted to help out more but life is exhausting man. I don't work half as hard as randr does at his day job. He runs his own business, and as a hobby he hosted the site. It's not an easy job running any site, let alone one with 100k users, all the drama that goes along with it... Thalamus helped a lot with moderating (and others I believe, I've really been out of the loop for almost 2 years) but it's still all riding on him, site gets attacked, he's gotta take time out of his day to tinker and fix it. I know at the beginning he had fun setting it up, but that joy goes away real quick when it starts to feel like a job. The way all table authors feel, multiply that, I told him every time he brought it up he's gotta take care of himself first. He owes nobody anything.

 

He's such a great guy and I know the drama and nonsense has been taking a toll on him. Seeing that message on the site today makes me feel like Ben Affleck at the end of Good Will Hunting. 

[wiesshund]

@wiesshund its not that easy.  I'm a software engineering professional and I still get stuck on a table from time to time.  Making sure I have the most recent version of a table, check whether its a mod and if it is whether it is a good one, what directb2s file it should go with if one wasn't provided, oh is there a newer one? oh why does an extra alpha numeric display show up on the backglass.... why do I get two dmds.... why do I get no dmd.... why can't I hear anything.... why does it crash to desktop when starting just this one table.... how to i make the table fit my cabinet better, how do i change options in the table, how does ultradmd work, what happened to my sound again....why is the playfield so stupidly dark,  can I keep two versions of this table.... where do i get the music for this table... oh have to rename 20 music files.... its just one damn thing after another. I don't mind, its part of the hobby and getting to know the system. But many people would like to go to a site/program get a list of tables, enter their cabinet/configuration (fss, cabinet, 2 screen, 3 screen, front end, etc) and get an installable package that installs with a press of a button and then enjoy playing pinball. Failing that they take the table pack they can find and do their best with it, or if they bought a cabinet that matches that pack then it just works. It's hard to blame them. The table pack on its own doesn't really help much as you still have to fiddle with the damn things for your own configuration. If my wife wanted to play this on her PC she would give up in 10 minutes and just take whatever pinball fx gives her. That keeps the hobby an exclusive club somewhat under the radar (less so now than in years past) but its a problem that someone is going to fix with or without the blessing of the community. Perhaps it would be better if the solution was made by the community instead.

 

I'm happy with things as is. I'm just being devil's advocate a bit.

 

I dont think it is all that difficult?

I dont know squat, but i get everything to work, does not seem that hard to figure out.
And i dont try to throw 900 tables in, in one lump, hell i cant even look at them all, let alone play them.

 

Honestly, i doubt i would find 900 tables that i actually like and could honestly say Yes, i will play all of them.

 

But i mean, if i can make mine work, anybody can.

[JFR1]

Thanks for chiming in Fren.  I hope the content from the site can be archived elsewhere and made available.  Else -  we're watching a Library of Alexandria Fire and many things that should not be lost may be for good.  And when the heck is Verne's World ever going to get full-on build!

[Karlor]

He's such a great guy and I know the drama and nonsense has been taking a toll on him. Seeing that message on the site today makes me feel like Ben Affleck at the end of Good Will Hunting. 

 I feel like Sam Rothstein at the end of Casino... the old Vegas being invaded and the aspects that built the legend of the city being replaced with a sterile corporate experience-emulation of the real thing.. and who's it for??.. the normies....

 

and in the end? we f#%$ed it all up..

[rodclemen]

I am thinking there could be another way, instead of just shutting down an amazing site? 

I dont do FB so I don't know all the crap that goes on, but ignoring the idiots that ruin it for everybody else (or block them from access) seems like an "easy" option?

 

another thought I to make VPX and tables pay to play? Have random donate buttons pop up while playing until you donate, which gives you a key that is unique to you so it can't be used by anyone else (if it is, it will be banned, and the popups will just start all over again).

That way pin cab builders who sell tables, will have way to sell tables that you have to pay for - so not really a good deal.

 

even make the websites pay to use, that way people will hopefully behave if they dont want their membership revoked and if they try to use another email to register as a new fake user, you can see from the creditcard payment if its the same person.

 

I am aware that implementing this and having a server or something to check for keys etc. will be a process, but the money donated should be enough to upkeep that, and probably be enough to pay all the content creators who spends countless hours making tables for us to enjoy?

 

I am probably in the miniority of people who thinks that pay to play is a good idea, but its not about making millions for the creators, its just about making it annoying enough for the lame pin cab builders to stop or at least having to pay back to the people they rip off.

[freneticamnesic]

You have to consider the bigger threat to our hobby - there's money in the game now. AT Games, Arcade1up, others - they all have a stake, there's money in it for them. Now that there's money in it for them, anyone taking a slice of that pie is a threat. When you see cabs fully loaded, trust me, they see it too. That's our threat, because if they see these, they are gonna follow the bread crumbs back to us. They're not stupid, they know we exist, but until someone is making a buck off of IP they own they're not going to give a shit. 

This needs to be a collective effort. I bet randr feels like he's fighting it alone. I don't know what to do, but we need to raise hell and be proactive in shutting these clowns down. It's our hobby, if they get vpf, vpb, vpu shut down, they don't care, they got theirs. On to the next money maker. Chew em up and spit em out.

[rodclemen]

You have to consider the bigger threat to our hobby - there's money in the game now. AT Games, Arcade1up, others - they all have a stake, there's money in it for them. Now that there's money in it for them, anyone taking a slice of that pie is a threat. When you see cabs fully loaded, trust me, they see it too. That's our threat, because if they see these, they are gonna follow the bread crumbs back to us. They're not stupid, they know we exist, but until someone is making a buck off of IP they own they're not going to give a shit. 

This needs to be a collective effort. I bet randr feels like he's fighting it alone. I don't know what to do, but we need to raise hell and be proactive in shutting these clowns down. It's our hobby, if they get vpf, vpb, vpu shut down, they don't care, they got theirs. On to the next money maker. Chew em up and spit em out.

You are absolutely right. didn't think about the money part perspective.

 

/off to downvote every "official" pin cab builder video on YouTube .

 

how about the creators goto YouTube and copyright claim videos? that's gonna be annoying for guys like retro play 

Edited by rodclemen, 02 April 2021 - 08:25 AM.

[Wylte]

Thanks for chiming in Fren.  I hope the content from the site can be archived elsewhere and made available.  Else -  we're watching a Library of Alexandria Fire and many things that should not be lost may be for good.

I know I'm feeling grateful that I downloaded almost all of the Original tables on vpinball within the last couple days. Some of those authors are straight gone, and I don't know yet where else they may have been mirrored.

[gregh43]

Right on Point Fren. I seen it coming too when that one table author sold his tables to AtGames I think it was the table Leprechaun for the AtGames Legends arcade machine and Pizza Time for the upcoming AtGames Virtual pinball.
Atgames is the biggest threat since they have their machines to setup to
run a Pc on it. they even advertise it will run vpx tables. iam not saddened that Vpinball site shut down. it was destined to happen. some of the moderators that help run the site were rude to members for really nothing over pointing out a few mistakes on certain
tables that needed some work. too many high egos with this hobby. No one wants to help anyone that has questions about running the software. or help with wanting to learn how to scan playfields or pinball parts to share to the community for improvements to the tables. I own 15 pinball games that If I had the know how to
get the resources from those games to share to the community I would. instead of getting Dick responses for asking. thats my 2 cents

[hanibal2001]

A really bad day for the future of virtual pinball experiences...

[wiesshund]

I am thinking there could be another way, instead of just shutting down an amazing site? 

I dont do FB so I don't know all the crap that goes on, but ignoring the idiots that ruin it for everybody else (or block them from access) seems like an "easy" option?

 

another thought I to make VPX and tables pay to play? Have random donate buttons pop up while playing until you donate, which gives you a key that is unique to you so it can't be used by anyone else (if it is, it will be banned, and the popups will just start all over again).

That way pin cab builders who sell tables, will have way to sell tables that you have to pay for - so not really a good deal.

 

even make the websites pay to use, that way people will hopefully behave if they dont want their membership revoked and if they try to use another email to register as a new fake user, you can see from the creditcard payment if its the same person.

 

I am aware that implementing this and having a server or something to check for keys etc. will be a process, but the money donated should be enough to upkeep that, and probably be enough to pay all the content creators who spends countless hours making tables for us to enjoy?

 

I am probably in the miniority of people who thinks that pay to play is a good idea, but its not about making millions for the creators, its just about making it annoying enough for the lame pin cab builders to stop or at least having to pay back to the people they rip off.

 

We can not do that.

I for example, would have to approach Rowamet's IP owner and Gottlieb's IP owner, to try to cut a licensing deal
no license, no table.

JP, well he would have to approach like everyone pretty much, and cut a licensing deal, including people like Blizzard


And just because one asks, does not mean the discussion will even be entertained, you might very well get told No, now Sod off
and then, thats the end of doing the table.

 

And Biggus?
Well he is just flat out screwed.
He can not do a mod if the right to reproduce the table is held by someone else.
In fact, i am pretty sure the end product would need encrypted / obfuscated etc so that no one can see inside it
and see how it was made, edit it, nothing.

 

And then somebody has to act as publisher, or you have 7000 VPX stores.
You notice that there are not a plethora of retail vpin offerings, there are reasons for that.
 

And the people you are licensing from, they are going to want say so in what you create.

If they dont like what you make, licensing deal over, does not matter if other people like it.

 

And VPX itself, would most likely have to become commercialized.
And then it is no longer a hobby for people like toxie and the other devs, and it may then lose the fun aspect of making it
and it might lose them too because of it, retail software dev brings a lot of pressure and also kills a lot of creative ideas because it is not right enough quick enough
for the ledger books.

 

And this website?
Well, it would probably cease to exist, as it presently exists anyways.

[BrandonLaw]

Y'all know Randr has been getting BLASTED with DDoS attacks on the reg, right?  It's extremely easy to continually overwhelm a site if there's someone out there with an angle or grudge.  It's FREE and BOTnet sites are all over the place.  He is also a family-man that cannot spend his time defending a hobby on a layer 4 issue all day and night.  Like Fren said, I'm surprised it was up this long and he dedicated this amount of effort, time, and finances into something that was probably at this point more stress than payoff.  There comes a time when family and your own life matters more and the 'fuck it' mentality takes over as it's not part of the big picture. 

 

Kudos to RandR for giving us a valuable hub for so long. 

[Schlabber34]

Right on Point Fren. I seen it coming too when that one table author sold his tables to AtGames I think it was the table Leprechaun for the AtGames Legends arcade machine and Pizza Time for the upcoming AtGames Virtual pinball.
Atgames is the biggest threat since they have their machines to setup to
run a Pc on it. they even advertise it will run vpx tables. iam not saddened that Vpinball site shut down. it was destined to happen. some of the moderators that help run the site were rude to members for really nothing over pointing out a few mistakes on certain
tables that needed some work. too many high egos with this hobby. No one wants to help anyone that has questions about running the software. or help with wanting to learn how to scan playfields or pinball parts to share to the community for improvements to the tables. I own 15 pinball games that If I had the know how to
get the resources from those games to share to the community I would. instead of getting Dick responses for asking. thats my 2 cents

 

Everytime i read shit like this i would like to see HauntFreaks coming back for some virtual facewashing! You know nothing about VPinball!

 

And that's my 2 cents! 

[Bertone]

Why he did not give the site to people with time or change the model like launchbox or hyperspin with payment. The people will pay for a good side.  And remember in the past the same thing happend again with Hyperspin and Launchbox. Some People always try to make money with building bartops, cabinets and community stuff. That is not okay. But these are only 2% of our friendly hobby community. The only good thing by the way is that more and more people find a way to the great arcade hobby....  I hope he will think about it and it was only a bad april joke. It is also very sad that only one site has nearly everything like pup packs and so on....

[bietekwiet]

I was just about to build a new pincab...I guess not.

[Sixtoed]

I've been in and around emulation for over 20 years, running a website, being part of mamedev and generally being part of the emulation community, what's happening in vpinball is what happened to arcade emulation and MAME in particular years ago.

 

If you "do" anything for this "hobby" (websites, pinmame coding, tables, backglasses, pup packs, colour roms, altsound etc.) , you *have* to be doing it for your own reasons and you have to enjoy it, and you either have to accept that your stuff gets sold by people and other people make money from it, or quit and not do it.

There's little to no thanks for content creators apart from a *very* small core group, and even then half the positive comments are backhanded "wow, this is great, but why don't you do this next", and they're outnumbered by the complaints of something not working correctly because someone hasn't set up their environment properly, hasn't read one of the how-to's or hasn't got the right rom, so the negative comments always outnumber the positive.

 

If you have a job, the last thing you want is to come home from work and feel like you're walking into another job, one for which you're not getting paid for and is arguably more stressful. As soon as it gets to that point then it's time to quit.

 

Yes it sucks that vpinball shut down, but I totally understand why randr did it, he wasn't having any fun anymore, he wasn't being paid for it, it was actually costing him time, money and stress, he was getting little to no thanks and he obviously hated what he saw and the direction it was going. At the end of the day what was in it for him apart from a miserable existence?, as difficult as it is, people need to see past their own needs, there are real people behind these things.

 

Personally I still enjoy the tinkering and then throwing things out into the sea like a message in a bottle, but if it comes to a point when I'm not? Then I'll stop doing it.

Edited by Sixtoed, 02 April 2021 - 11:07 AM.

[chepas]

Hosting Puppy packs with hi res movie clips? I can't see how anyone SHOULD last hosting those.

[KurtWehrli]

Wow. I was just getting into this hobby, downloading original tables and learning...then poof. Feels like I'm showing up to a party at sunrise :-\

 

True for me too.

[LynnInDenver]

Yeah, it's completely understandable. It would be the DDOS (which would have sucked the remaining joy out of it because he had to come back and fix it), the people selling or redistributing tables in packages for easy download (I understand the impulse; make it easier for other people to come in, but it also further enables Lazy Commercial Pincab Sellers), and the Lazy Commercial Pincab Sellers and the Lazy Commercial Package Sellers. I think he'd even made some noise regarding the spreadsheet that helps people track what is where (there is a lot to track, I can't begrudge that), and then the stuff that's moved to Facebook.

 

The AtGames/Arcade1Up/Toyshock stuff doesn't even enter into the picture. Those aren't hobbyist machines; they're entirely commercial offerings with very slim overlap to what's on offer from the community.

[cv2065]

I am confused, probably missing something.
Are not 3/4 scale commercial cabinets already available and have been?

 

virtual pin has cabs that are i guess 3/4 scale?

 

The other is a whole other can of worms of another label

Just reading up on how to make Pup Packs. I'm going to go for it. Thanks Terry!

wrong thread? LOL

 

Someone said Pup Packs were gone....So I'll have to contribute...