26 replies to this topic

[whynotpizza]

Hi guys,

 

Trying to decide on the best 1080p 40" diagonal playfield for my new pin build.

 

What about using a commercial PC monitor instead of an LED HDTV?

 

Seems like that would be the most ideal, given the lag time issues and motion blur problems introduced by a TV.

 

Any ideas/suggestions?

 

  David

 

MONITOR

  http://www.samsung.c.../LH40HDBPLGA/ZA

LED HDTV

  http://www.lg.com/us...00-smart-led-tv

  or

  http://www.samsung.c.../UN40H5500AFXZA

Edited by whynotpizza, 15 June 2015 - 02:27 AM.

[freneticamnesic]

Get the LG, but get the non-smart version. You don't need the smart tv features, they just add to the price

or get last years model of the same tv for a lot cheaper

[jimmyfingers]

See this topic with a TV that will truly run at 120hz and as long as your system can push those FPS consistently, there will be no other monitor or T.V. that can touch the visual experience of VP at actual 120 FPS (yet but hopefully soon more will enter the market as well as in the future 4k at 120, which VP could really benefit from vs. "modern" 3D heavy games):

 

http://www.vpforums....=31097&hl=seiki

 

See also the link within that article in the first post as that is where some important details are discussed.  

[freneticamnesic]

Yep the seiki is a good tv too. I was lookin at a 50" when I was TV shopping, but went with the LG. What I read at the time was you needed a FW upgrade on the seiki to do the full 120hz at 1080p but may have been wrong info.

[jimmyfingers]

Yes, all the details and the information regarding the firmware requirement is in the link I posted (and subsequent first post further link).  Those two total threads are all anyone would need to know about a great priced 39" TV that gets 120hz native with very low input latency but does involve the firmware "update" / replacement. 

 

P.S. I don't work for Seiki  If I was building a full-sized cab I be using it but I have mini-cab / HV set-up and 39" was too big (was less than $400 CDN when I bought it / tested it out).

Edited by jimmyfingers, 15 June 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[whynotpizza]

thanks guys, I took your advice and just purchased the 39" from TG ... I will post my results.

 

  David

[whynotpizza]

Ok TV arrived earlier today, connected to my PC and am currently running 1920x1080 @60hz. Actually looks pretty good (although I am a novice and have yet to actually put eyes on a 120hz setup - yet!) http://seiki.com/sit..._PROD_SHEET.PDF

 

My PC is running a GeForce GTS 450, with dual DVI outputs, one for the Seiki play field monitor and one for the backglass monitor 27”.

 

Been looking thru various threads regarding 120Hz setup and am confused.

 

It is as simple as flashing the 50” firmware from Seiki on top of my 39.5” set?

 

When looking on screen resolution capability on the Windows 7 PC, it only shows 60Hz (no choice for 120hz)

 

Will this GTS card running DVI be able to handle 120Hz? Or do I need a different video card?

 

What else specifically do I need to do in order to run 120Hz?

 

 

  David 

[jimmyfingers]

 

Ok TV arrived earlier today, connected to my PC and am currently running 1920x1080 @60hz. Actually looks pretty good (although I am a novice and have yet to actually put eyes on a 120hz setup - yet!) http://seiki.com/sit..._PROD_SHEET.PDF

 

My PC is running a GeForce GTS 450, with dual DVI outputs, one for the Seiki play field monitor and one for the backglass monitor 27”.

 

Been looking thru various threads regarding 120Hz setup and am confused.

 

It is as simple as flashing the 50” firmware from Seiki on top of my 39.5” set?

 

When looking on screen resolution capability on the Windows 7 PC, it only shows 60Hz (no choice for 120hz)

 

Will this GTS card running DVI be able to handle 120Hz? Or do I need a different video card?

 

What else specifically do I need to do in order to run 120Hz?

 

 

  David 

 

First off, yes, flash the T.V. with the firmware from the Seiki 50".  As far as getting 120hz, I don't think it showed anything as I'm used to creating and experimenting with many custom resolutions so I just typically go in there (nVidia custom resolutions) and create / test the one I'm trying.  So after flashing take a look and see if you can get 120hz without, but it's no big deal if you can't and then just create one in the custom resolutions. 

 

As far as the DVI connections and your card.  The 450 could be a problem, but, get the other prerequisites going first before worrying about whether it will need to be upgraded (might have to be just because of maintaining 120 FPS with VP10 and anti-aliasing).  But do verify that the card has a dual-link DVI connection and use that one for the 120hz / "overclocked" TV connection.  The cable itself needs to be good quality as well and for now the shorter the better.  I think you may have to also patch the driver to lift the limits on the max. clock speed but that may not be necessary (I don't recall doing it on my current Korean monitor / 760 GTX in my mini-cab but did experiment with it throughout this whole process and when trying out the Seiki).  I will try and dig up a link on the pixel rate / clock patching deal but get all the other items going first.  Also, there is another user here in the forums and is the OP from the topic / link I provided a few posts back (Bluerider221).  His memory will be fresher than mine as he just set it up recently and can probably help confirm what exact steps he needed.

 

Main thing for now is for sure you need the firmware flash.  Let us know how it goes.

 

EDIT:

 

Hey, I just looked at your product sheet and the model number in that documentation is not the one that I know to work with 120hz.  So, be careful now flashing the firmware as you may want to return it and get the proper model instead (SE39UY04 vs. the one in your linked spec. sheet).  Take a look on-line and see if your model can do the same but I would be careful now and consider returning it for the model that is known to work for sure).

 

This is a link to the T.V. that was purchased in the linked thread above by Bluerider221 - at the U.S. Tiger Direct site for $299.  The model you got looks like some type of desktop monitor 40" version (SM40UNP).  I have no idea about the capabilities of that one and would get the one that is referenced and has the information about over-clocking confirmed.

 

http://www.tigerdire...0969&CatId=8893

Edited by jimmyfingers, 23 June 2015 - 03:54 AM.

[whynotpizza]

Thanks for the additional info. Sorry the link i put above did not reference the actual TV I have bought. I have the correct unit SE39UY04.
However, I cannot find the older ZIP containing the 50" flash image on their website.
http://www.seiki.com/support/download
That said, I used waybackmachine to grab a copy (SE50UY04_20130528.zip)
I checked the TV current firmware version and am a bit apprehensive to drop this 2013 image onto the current 2015 firmware. 
Do you think this is really needed anymore? 
My TV firmware says: Jan 09, 2015.
Using current setup on firmware, I tried creating a customized 1920x1080 @ 120Hz ... and tested it. Didn't work. Blank screen.
NOTE: I am converting DVI to VGA and inputing a VGA cable to my TV. Should I switch to HDMI? If so, will need to get a different video card, since this puppy only outputs DVI.
Another option I suppose is using DVI to HDMI cable - would that do it?
Looking at specs on my video card, not sure it can go 120

Edited by whynotpizza, 23 June 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[bosvrucht]

by doing DVI-->VGA you end up with a analog signal.  You will probably need a digital one,  you can get a DVI-->HDMI adapter for a about dollar (if you are willing to wait 3 weeks):

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item5d485828d4

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks for the additional info. Sorry the link i put above did not reference the actual TV I have bought. I have the correct unit SE39UY04.
However, I cannot find the older ZIP containing the 50" flash image on their website.
http://www.seiki.com/support/download
That said, I used waybackmachine to grab a copy (SE50UY04_20130528.zip)
I checked the TV current firmware version and am a bit apprehensive to drop this 2013 image onto the current 2015 firmware. 
Do you think this is really needed anymore? 
My TV firmware says: Jan 09, 2015.
Using current setup on firmware, I tried creating a customized 1920x1080 @ 120Hz ... and tested it. Didn't work. Blank screen.
NOTE: I am converting DVI to VGA and inputing a VGA cable to my TV. Should I switch to HDMI? If so, will need to get a different video card, since this puppy only outputs DVI.
Another option I suppose is using DVI to HDMI cable - would that do it?
Looking at specs on my video card, not sure it can go 120

Good to hear you got the right model and only posted the wrong documentation.  As far as firmware, maybe hold off flashing with the older one and definitely do so until you can properly test the 120hz.  No way will using a DVI to VGA adapter and using the VGA input on the TV allow this to work so get yourself a DVI to HDMI adapter.  In my testing I believe I was also using a DVI (dual link still and I make sure of this detail) with a dual link cable and an HDMI adapter to get 120hz from my development system.  It was a 560ti card though and more current than your 400 series.  

 

You definitely have to have some precision in doing this and be sure of some things or you likely won't succeed, so be sure of the accuracy in everything you do from what model you're dealing with, to knowing that VGA is analog and this is a digital solution only, to ensuring that you are using the best DVI port on your graphics card (a lot of models with two DVI outputs have only one of them being dual link).  You will also have to make sure you have a dual link cable.  As I say, I'm fairly certain my tests were using DVI only output (not HDMI form the card) but dual link and simply using an HDMI adapter to an HDMI cable fed ultimately to the TV.  If I recall correctly the TV only has an HDMI input and not a DVI which is why I believe I had to got that route.

 

As I also mentioned, try and contact the other user above who has done this recently and confirm some things like your concerns around the firmware versions and also his graphics card and whether he had to run the pixel clock patcher or not (you're still a little ways away from that until you get resolve your cabling issues). 

[whynotpizza]

Thanks guys.

I just completed the tests using a DVI to HDMI cable and NOT flashing the older firmware. Instead I kept the current January 2015 release on the TV. 

Worked like a champ. I was cable to use the NVIDIA control panel to create a customized 1920x1080p running at 120hz. 

Excellent!

To be honest, I do see a slight variation between 60hz and 120hz but not a dramatic difference. Both look pretty good, obviously will keep it to 120hz.

I did wind up downloading the 50" ZIP image file using the wayback machine (October 2014) -- in case anyone is still looking for that older 2013 release. Seiki no longer has that file available on their website, and they were less than helpful when talking to support today without a specific serial number in hand. 

All in all I am quite happy with the LED TV (only $300 out the door @ tiger direct) and am on to the next phase of this little project! I plan to drop it into a standard size williams pinball cabinet I picked up locally.

Thanks again for the responses....

  David

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks guys.

I just completed the tests using a DVI to HDMI cable and NOT flashing the older firmware. Instead I kept the current January 2015 release on the TV. 

Worked like a champ. I was cable to use the NVIDIA control panel to create a customized 1920x1080p running at 120hz. 

Excellent!

To be honest, I do see a slight variation between 60hz and 120hz but not a dramatic difference. Both look pretty good, obviously will keep it to 120hz.

I did wind up downloading the 50" ZIP image file using the wayback machine (October 2014) -- in case anyone is still looking for that older 2013 release. Seiki no longer has that file available on their website, and they were less than helpful when talking to support today without a specific serial number in hand. 

All in all I am quite happy with the LED TV (only $300 out the door @ tiger direct) and am on to the next phase of this little project! I plan to drop it into a standard size williams pinball cabinet I picked up locally.

Thanks again for the responses....

  David

If you only see a slight difference there's a couple things that would / could still be affecting you and I encourage you to fully confirm your 120hz status before deeming it done.  First, you need to verify you are truly getting "real" 120hz and not 120hz with frame skipping that effectively becomes 60hz except for the quicker input response benefit.  You need to test with this site / link and follow their instructions (you need to take a photo to be certain - screen capture not an option and defeats the purpose):

 

http://www.testufo.c...t=frameskipping

 

On that site it will show you what it should look like (a continuous group of boxes being rendering or partially on / off with no breaks in the middle).  Sometimes you can tell without a picture (I can see the difference and detect frame skipping in this link / test without the picture but that also comes from a bit of experience in knowing what to look for). The test can be and is used for testing any refresh rate that you want to confirm is properly drawing each frame / syncing with the monitor / display.

 

The next thing you need to do in any tests to properly assess the smoothness difference from 60hz to 120hz as far as Visual Pinball goes (and in general for getting the most buttery effect from VP) is to ensure you are using Vsync set to 1 (if set in the global parameters make sure the table you're testing with either has -1 to use the default / global setting or 1 itself in the table options, as 0 in the table level settings will disable it).  This Vsync option though is only really an option to actually use for PMv5 and VP10 tables as regular VP9 has issues with the physics loops / syncing if you use it in "regular" VP9.9 or older.   You will have your results highly obscured regarding how smooth and fluid the ball animation / rendering is if you are not using Vsync and thus make comparing 60 to 120hz difficult and skewed.  

 

Lastly, it is possible you may not notice that much as some people don't seem to see as many frames per second as others, but I suspect that one of the two above items is a cause in the potential visible difference that you should see when comparing proper 60hz and proper 120hz at least as far as Visual Pinball is concerned.  

[whynotpizza]

Ok.

Just tested...

IE11 indicates "Internet Explorer supports SYNC only up to 100 Mhz"

Mozilla Firefox 38.0.5 (x86) indicates "sync failure: Imperfect Sync. Try closing all apps and browser tabs"

Any ideas on getting sync to work?

I only have the one monitor (Seiki) connected to the PC using one of the DVI connects to the Dual output GeForce GTS 450. I wonder if I should connect the monitor to the other DVI connection on the GTS 450 instead?

Edited by whynotpizza, 24 June 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[jimmyfingers]

Ok.

Just tested...

IE11 indicates "Internet Explorer supports SYNC only up to 100 Mhz"

Mozilla Firefox 38.0.5 (x86) indicates "sync failure: Imperfect Sync. Try closing all apps and browser tabs"

Any ideas on getting sync to work?

I only have the one monitor (Seiki) connected to the PC using one of the DVI connects to the Dual output GeForce GTS 450. I wonder if I should connect the monitor to the other DVI connection on the GTS 450 instead?

Use Chrome to do the frame skipping tests and don't worry about changing DVI connections yet if you were able to connect to your T.V. at the custom resolution of 120Hz. 

[whynotpizza]

Ok, Chrome worked fine to test the monitor.

 

You are correct, I am getting frame skipping (See attached)

 

Does this mean I should look to get a different card insetad of the GTS 450? Maybe one with native HDMI support.

 

I am hesitant to install firmware from 2013 over the top of the current January 2015.

 

Attached Files

•  FrameSkipping.JPG   108.09KB   8 downloads

[jimmyfingers]

I think you're still going to have to flash the T.V.  The frame skipping, to my knowledge, is something that is being manipulated / controlled by the T.V. considering it's at least letting your computer "think" it's connected at 120hz.  So, before even a new card, I still would imagine you're going to have to bite the bullet on the firmware.  I can't recall if there's an option to backup the one that's on there, if not, look for another copy of the seiki 39" model (listed above) that is available somewhere on-line as a backup.  For what it's worth, I downgraded my version to but you're model may be a slightly different revision then the one I was testing in the fall and have some other nuances.  The one I downgraded in the fall obviously at least didn't have a January 2015 firmware but, as I say, don't know if the sub-version of the model may be different.  As far as I had seen, the "50 firmware was always key in getting the 120hz "true" to work.

[whynotpizza]

Success! (see attached) no frame skipping.

 

It was tense at first when applying the older firmware on the TV, it restarted and dropped into 1080i and looked terrible. After I picked myself up off the floor, I realized the PC needed to re-apply the 1080p @ 120hz setting which was customized in NVIDIA control panel. Once it Did that, I re-ran the sync tests. (See attached)

 

For others reference, the specific version of firmware I used was from May 21 2013. (SE50UY04_20130528)

 

http://web.archive.o...t/downloads.php
hz

 

I am running 9.9.0 VP and it looks very crisp so far, allthough what I plan to do later is compare how VP looks using 60hz vs 120hz and see if I can notice the difference, which I suspect I will.

 

Thanks for the help!

Attached Files

•  True120.JPG   115.16KB   8 downloads

Edited by whynotpizza, 25 June 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[jimmyfingers]

Success! (see attached) no frame skipping.

 

It was tense at first when applying the older firmware on the TV, it restarted and dropped into 1080i and looked terrible. After I picked myself up off the floor, I realized the PC needed to re-apply the 1080p @ 120hz setting which was customized in NVIDIA control panel. Once it Did that, I re-ran the sync tests. (See attached)

 

For others reference, the specific version of firmware I used was from May 21 2013. (SE50UY04_20130528)

 

http://web.archive.o...t/downloads.php
hz

 

I am running 9.9.0 VP and it looks very crisp so far, allthough what I plan to do later is compare how VP looks using 60hz vs 120hz and see if I can notice the difference, which I suspect I will.

 

Thanks for the help!

That's good to hear that you got it sorted and was entertaining to hear you expand on the nervous moments - glad they were only moments

 

That firmware filename looks very familiar so thanks for posting that as I will grab a copy too in case anyone else in the future needs it / some help.

 

Don't forget to assess the blur / lack-of-blur by ensuring you are playing VP with Vsync on.  Althouth, regular VP9 has it, it has some physics issues that it can introduce, however, it would still let you potentially assess the smoothness when properly Vsync.  I haven't tested 120hz monitor / overclocking with anything but PMv5 and VP10 so, to be totally safe, I would say check out some PMv5 tables and make sure you got Vsync set accordingly in the global and table specific settings sections.

 

Pretty good for $300 bucks, right?  Happy 120hz Virtual Pinballing

[doogie2301]

So I decided go with this 39" Seiki after reading the discussions here, and after flashing with the 50" firmware I am able to get 120hz from the PC as evidenced by the frame skipping test (see attached).

 

​

 

However, only when running at 120hz (and not other refresh rates) there seems to be some kind of problem with the display that can be seen in dark areas.  For example the Windows 10 background looks like it is moving (see video below).  Has anyone seen this before or know what could be wrong?  I am using a GeForce GTX 960 and a high-speed HDMI cable directly from the graphics card to the HDMI 1 input on the TV.

 

Sorry, not sure how to embed a video, here is the link to YouTube:

https://youtu.be/9mWwdUqof1E