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Is Physmod 5 really ready for general use?

VP10 VP9.9.0 physmod 5 Beta testing

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#21 jkimbrell

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:14 PM

There's a few weird things I've noticed with the physmod ver 5 that I guess is related to spin.  For instance, on UW's BOP physmod table, it seems like the ball is almost impossible to hit up the heartbeat ramp (not sure if that's what its called) from the left flipper.  99.9% of the time, it gets around the curve and instead of dropping down the ramp, it goes back up the the curved part and back down.  Seems like the spin can also make the ball movement slow down as if the playfield friction is too strong.  How the green dots showing the spin turned on?  I've seen that mentioned but I didn't see a setting for it. 


Edited by jkimbrell, 20 August 2014 - 09:15 PM.


#22 Shoopity

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:33 PM

How the green dots showing the spin turned on?  I've seen that mentioned but I didn't see a setting for it. 

Push F11 while playing a table.



#23 xzotic

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:21 AM

 

Someone can only mention 'it feels real' or not. I am sure my personal 'feel' is incorrect. I almost never play a real table and haven't played it a lot in the arcades in the 80's / 90's. My pinball physics feel is probably mostly influenced by VP and of course my experience with real life gravity. The latter makes me think, I am entitled to at least say something about it but I am certainly not a jimmyfingers.

The latter doesn't really make you entitled to say something although you have every right to state your opinion of course. If you haven't got a lot of real world experience playing real machines then regardless of what you may know about gravity it won't translate to how a real pinball table should play. The reason why people say it feels right is because they are making a one to one comparison with actually playing a real table as opposed to someone thinking what it should do based on their knowledge of how a soccer ball flies through the air. The two view points are mutually exclusive and don't warrant cross-examination.

 

I just want to echo TedB's sentiment a little bit too.  Although I admittedly have an exceptionally small amount of real pinball experience (especially compared to many people on this board) so I usually don't say anything as I chalk it up to my lack of really knowing; also I haven't tried too many of these "official" physmod tables.  I do want to say that in some aspects I much prefer the physmod versions, but sometimes I see what I consider to be odd behavior.

So you agree with Ted, have little real pinball experience and haven't tried too many of these tables but want to comment on odd behaviour? OK sure, you are entitled to share your opinion.

 

 

 

 To be honest that is what I thought after playing two of the physmods. I expected harder tables and unpredictable behavior because of the introduction of spin but it didn't feel that way.

 

 

I can't understand why you would expect unpredictable behaviour with the introduction of spin and for tables to play harder.  If physics are improved the result is more predictable behaviour even when additional variables (such as spin) are introduced. Unpredictable behaviour means the physics are worse and the recognition of unpredictability is clear evidence of that.


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#24 EalaDubhSidhe

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:00 PM

It's only 'predictable' if you understand and can follow all the variables in play and how they apply to any given situation at any time. You can guess and have an instinct for judging this of course, but even real pin designers can't do more than that, that's why every machine goes through multiple iterations during play testing, and any game where the same shot can be made every single time with no consequence is a monumental failure in any case.

Edited by EalaDubhSidhe, 21 August 2014 - 01:04 PM.

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#25 Shoopity

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:13 PM

So you agree with Ted, have little real pinball experience and haven't tried too many of these tables but want to comment on odd behaviour? OK sure, you are entitled to share your opinion.

 

But as I said in other parts of my post, I do have some experience, including two hours just recently of playing real pinball, everything from 60's up to JJP's WoO.  In those two hours, I saw some back spin (enough to go down the table, then back up as if a magnet threw it) once or twice.  I can't play a single ball on a single table with the physmod without seeing it.  I also watch hours of PAPA video, from tutorials to the competitions and I almost never the ball behave like it does in the physmod.  So I may not have as much experience as some, but I do have some; and just because I may not have experience playing doesn't mean I've never watched someone play and noticed in difference in ball behavior.

 

I can't understand why you would expect unpredictable behaviour with the introduction of spin and for tables to play harder.  If physics are improved the result is more predictable behaviour even when additional variables (such as spin) are introduced. Unpredictable behaviour means the physics are worse and the recognition of unpredictability is clear evidence of that.

So, because you understand physics and you've had however many years of experience that you've been on this planet, you can make any physical act happen exactly the way you want it?  Not even robots can do something perfectly because of the unpredictability of everything that is a part of physics.  In a system that doesn't implement real life physics accurately, it's easy to get expected results; but because there's always something that can't be predicted (an insert get shaken out of place, a waft of heat from a bulb that's been on too long, a bang on the machine that separates the leaf switch ever so slightly causing the firing of the solenoid the be nanoseconds later), better implemented physics can make things more un-predictable if the previous system used too many constants.  The only way anyone has ever been able to program physics has had to program some degree of randomness since that how it appears to humans; leave out too many factors that influence a system and it becomes too predictable, put in too much randomness and then it's just a game of chance.  Point is, it's possible for better implemented physics to introduce "randomness" to a game if the previous system was poorly implemented.



#26 Gilrock

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

I think I spend too much time adding new tables than actually playing my tables.  I added that Playboy table update and tried both versions and I'm having trouble seeing much of a difference except with the physmod5 version I do get a few strange spin-outs where the ball seems to end up with too much spin and swing up and over in a short curve I'm not expecting.  I keep seeing that spin was introduced in the physmod but the previous versions always made me think they were spinning when I see papa smurf rolling around the ball.  I have a real machine right beside it and I guess all the virtual versions seem so much different I just try to enjoy them for what they are.  I will say I like the flipper response in VP so much better than PinballFX2 where it always feels like a small delay from pressing the button to the flipper movement.



#27 xzotic

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:56 PM

 

So you agree with Ted, have little real pinball experience and haven't tried too many of these tables but want to comment on odd behaviour? OK sure, you are entitled to share your opinion.

 

But as I said in other parts of my post, I do have some experience, including two hours just recently of playing real pinball, everything from 60's up to JJP's WoO.  In those two hours, I saw some back spin (enough to go down the table, then back up as if a magnet threw it) once or twice.  I can't play a single ball on a single table with the physmod without seeing it.  I also watch hours of PAPA video, from tutorials to the competitions and I almost never the ball behave like it does in the physmod.  So I may not have as much experience as some, but I do have some; and just because I may not have experience playing doesn't mean I've never watched someone play and noticed in difference in ball behavior.

 

I can't understand why you would expect unpredictable behaviour with the introduction of spin and for tables to play harder.  If physics are improved the result is more predictable behaviour even when additional variables (such as spin) are introduced. Unpredictable behaviour means the physics are worse and the recognition of unpredictability is clear evidence of that.

So, because you understand physics and you've had however many years of experience that you've been on this planet, you can make any physical act happen exactly the way you want it?  Not even robots can do something perfectly because of the unpredictability of everything that is a part of physics.  In a system that doesn't implement real life physics accurately, it's easy to get expected results; but because there's always something that can't be predicted (an insert get shaken out of place, a waft of heat from a bulb that's been on too long, a bang on the machine that separates the leaf switch ever so slightly causing the firing of the solenoid the be nanoseconds later), better implemented physics can make things more un-predictable if the previous system used too many constants.  The only way anyone has ever been able to program physics has had to program some degree of randomness since that how it appears to humans; leave out too many factors that influence a system and it becomes too predictable, put in too much randomness and then it's just a game of chance.  Point is, it's possible for better implemented physics to introduce "randomness" to a game if the previous system was poorly implemented.

 

Fait enough, your points here are very valid and somewhat better articulated than the previous posts! Perhaps I was too quick to judge you and for that I apologise. 

 

Your last point is important however as the better the physics modelling is, the randomness as you put it can be applied to the 'fine parts' rather than the larger ones. This is the direction I believe that physmod is going. Applying and modelling more obvious real world behaviours such as spin and still applying some randomisation at a lower level to mimic those subtle real life nuances.  The point is, at least to me, phymod clearly heads more in that direction making the predictability of core gameplay believable while still applying some randomness at the lower levels to provide those 'random moments'. Therefore, by rights it should be more realistic by design.

 

Also, you may not have seen in another thread but I've been commenting about the extent of the ball spin in physmod and have maintained that it is too much. After recent testing the upshot is; ball spin appears to be very table specific and appears to be significantly more on very worn table surfaces presumably due to having more grip on a dirty/cracked surface. Newer tables in comparison show a lot less spin and a lot less than physmod does by default. So perhaps there is an area of agreement there. If nothing else it goes on to demonstrate that the modelling needs to take on the next layer of detail to mimic reality better and that may include table surface condition and wear. I'm not just talking a single variable here but a complete wear matrix map overlaid on the table with different variances which could naturally wear by following the ball trajectory over time....that would be something..

 

Either way - good discussion...


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#28 ClarkKent

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:19 PM

I think the physics of the physmod version should be the official physics. It's much much more realistic and plays much better! The ball is not that floaty with physmod. I know that it's not really possible to make the physmod version the official as all tables have to be adapted but as there are more and more tables coming for the new physics engine it's also a good way to play with the new physics! :)



#29 Shoopity

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

Like I said, it's quite possible the programming for the physics is spot on, but because so many variables are left adjustable by the table author, it just may take some time for authors to dial in the right numbers.  It may not be that the spin is too much in the programming, but the friction may be too high; or even if it is in the programming, it's an easy adjustment (of course that would have to be something the community largely agreed on and the dev agreed with).  Coupled with the ability import/export physics settings, it won't be long before "Williams 90's physics," "60's EM physics," and "Stern 2000+" settings become standard and easily shared among authors.



#30 mpad

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

Phew! Where is mukuste anyway? I'm beginning to worry if he is alright and just taking a pinball summer break.

#31 TedB

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:08 PM

Increase the cycle 'frame rate' from 100Hz to 1000Hz, as VP10 intends to, and you should see a sudden 'difficulty' spike because all timing cycles will become subject to natural variances due to human behaviour that can't instinctively predict to that extreme level of accuracy now.

 

Very interesting and I hope you are right! I assume (based on your use of the word 'should')  this is currently only a theoretical assumption and VP10 needs to prove you are right? So I mean no other cases or examples to back it up yet?



#32 TedB

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 06:22 PM

Like I said, it's quite possible the programming for the physics is spot on,

 

That was exactly my point as well. I am no expert so let the experts decide if the physics is correct. Problem is, it seems like the expert don't know how spot on the physics are as well.

Currently the focus seems to be on being able to make a shot/hit a target as expected, but I would suggest to look to the total result of the new physics. Will the difficulty increase and will playing a VP table become as hard (or preferably even harder).

You can't measure the experience of the physics, but you can register / share the highscores of an experienced player and compare them to the high scores on the real table.    



#33 gtxjoe

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

We interrupt this lively discussion for a minor physmod table list update... okay, carry on :)
 
Current List of available Physmod tables:
 
Download section - Physmod5
The Simpsons (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9894
Adv of Rocky and Bullwinke(javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9771
Last Action Hero (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9727
Playboy FS (ICPJuggla/gtxjoe): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9943
                      Desktop version:  http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9944
 
Shared via post - Physmod5
Bride of Pinbot (unclewilly): http://www.vpforums....c=9687&p=274854
Cyclone beta (ClarkKent): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=273289
Shared via post - Released during Physmod3
Creature FTBL (melon/uw): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=264695
Shared via post - Released during Physmod1
 
Unofficial Physmod 5 with modified nudging and different registry storage location: http://www.vpforums....=28313&p=278051
 

Edited by gtxjoe, 21 August 2014 - 07:13 PM.


#34 EalaDubhSidhe

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:16 PM

Increase the cycle 'frame rate' from 100Hz to 1000Hz, as VP10 intends to, and you should see a sudden 'difficulty' spike because all timing cycles will become subject to natural variances due to human behaviour that can't instinctively predict to that extreme level of accuracy now.

 
Very interesting and I hope you are right! I assume (based on your use of the word 'should')  this is currently only a theoretical assumption and VP10 needs to prove you are right? So I mean no other cases or examples to back it up yet?

Exactly, we won't know for sure until we see it in operation and there is no way to replicate the same effect before then.

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#35 gtxjoe

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 05:43 PM

Physmod related items:



#36 MisterB

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 05:30 PM

I just went through all of the links in the last post, and several of them (Simpsons, Playboy, and Power Play) are throwing error pages when I try to download them from this site.  Most of the others seem to be hosted outside of VPF and are working fine.

 

This has me wondering...are Physmod 5 tables being intentionally removed from the site?



#37 open6l

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 05:46 PM

I just went through all of the links in the last post, and several of them (Simpsons, Playboy, and Power Play) are throwing error pages when I try to download them from this site.  Most of the others seem to be hosted outside of VPF and are working fine.
 
This has me wondering...are Physmod 5 tables being intentionally removed from the site?


Nope - just refresh and try again

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#38 gtxjoe

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 09:33 PM

Updated list:

Physmod5 - http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=266075
Physmod4 - http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=265265
Physmod3 - http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=263194
Physmod2 - http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=261813
Physmod1 - http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=261241


Here is a list of physmod table releases on this site I found through a quick search. I am sure I missed a few... let me know and I can update this

Download section - Physmod5
The Simpsons (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9894
Adv of Rocky and Bullwinke(javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9771
Last Action Hero (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9727
Power Play (Les73gTx): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9974
Tales from the Crypt (LoadedWeapon): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9985

Shared via post - Physmod5
Twilight Zone (ClarkKent)http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=280633
TOM beta(teppotee): http://www.vpforums....=28720&p=277218
Freddy beta(teppotee): http://www.vpforums....=28719&p=277212
Bride of Pinbot (unclewilly): http://www.vpforums....c=9687&p=274854
Cyclone beta (ClarkKent): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=273289
Fire beta (unclewilly): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=268808
Shared via post - Release during Physmod3
Creature FTBL (melon/uw): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=264695
Shared via post - Release during Physmod1
White Water (ClarkKent): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=261569
PinballX Physmod Logo: http://www.vpforums....showtopic=28916

Official Physmod betas: http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=261239
Unofficial Physmod with modified nudging and different registry storage location: http://www.vpforums....=28313&p=277099

#39 MisterB

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:32 PM

Confirmed...switching browsers temporarily solved my download problem. Thanks open6l!

#40 gtxjoe

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 10:10 PM

Let me know if I missed any -
 
Download section - Physmod5
The Simpsons (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9894
Adv of Rocky and Bullwinke(javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9771
Last Action Hero (javier1515): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9727
Tales from the Crypt (LoadedWeapon): http://www.vpforums....s&showfile=9985
Flintsones (LoadedWeapon): http://www.vpforums....&showfile=10029
Back to the Future (LoadedWeapon): http://www.vpforums....&showfile=10086
 
 
Shared via post - Physmod5
Bride of Pinbot (unclewilly): http://www.vpforums....c=9687&p=274854
Cyclone beta (ClarkKent): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=273289
Shared via post - Release during Physmod3
Creature FTBL (melon/uw): http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=264695
Shared via post - Release during Physmod1
Firepower (jimmyfingers): http://www.vpforums....=29246&p=283381
 
Official VP Physmod betas: http://www.vpforums....=27416&p=261239
Unofficial VP Physmod with modified nudging and different registry storage location: http://www.vpforums....=28313&p=277099
 
 






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