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The road to VP10


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#1 fuzzel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:11 AM

The last VP9 version is out now let's start developing and testing the upcoming VP10 :) For now we plan to make a series of releases the first VP10.0 will be a compatibility release e.g. new physics engine, shader support for the ball rendering and some other stuff which doesn't break the entire compatibility to VP9 tables completely, but you will have to modifiy VP9 tables. This progress won't take too much time and we hope that we can release a first 10.0 in a couple of weeks(?). After that VP10.x will change more and more and it could be that it breaks compatibility to VP10.0 tables again. Therefore all table authors should check the VP version at the beginning and warn the user if the tables was designed for a different VP version.

That is just a rough plan we (the devs) discussed in a private thread so feel free to add your comments ;)



#2 mukuste

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

Here we go!

 

To elaborate on Fuzzel's post: what we discussed is that VP9 is now essentially finished. There may be a 9.9.1 bugfix release if anything comes up, but apart from that, that's it. VP10 is the next target. The plan for development is like this:

 

VP 10.0.0 is intended to contain the new physics, the mesh ball with a shader and maybe some more shader effects, some new scripting tools, many backwards-incompatible bugfixes and maybe some other features we come up with. It is followed by a series of 10.0.X releases which are mostly bugfixes and new features which preserve compatibility to 10.0.0. The idea is that any table created for 10.0 will always play well with the latest 10.0.X release.

 

A few weeks is probably a bit too optimistic for 10.0.0, but it should certainly be relatively fast since the physics engine is well underway and also the mesh ball exists already.

 

VP10 tables will have a new .vpx extension and maybe even a new file format, so there will never be confusion which version a table is designed for.

 

As we develop new incompatible changes, for instance a complete shader-based rendering pipeline, there may be an eventual change to version 10.1.0. This release may not be guaranteed to play all 10.0 tables without changes. Therefore, the idea is that all VP10 tables should have a bit of code like the following in their startup script:

If VersionMajor <> 10 Or VersionMinor <> 0 Then
	MsgBox "Warning: This table was designed for VP 10.0!"
End If

This informs the user that he is not running the table in the proper 10.Y version. We might even make this feature built-in to VP without scripting needed, but I think this check is easy to do and quite flexible when done in script, for instance you could allow both 10.0 and 10.1 if the table is found to play well in both versions.

 

Any such 10.1 release is far off at this point, one to two years in the future being a rough guess, so this is a long-term strategy to avoid the endless backwards-compatibility mess that VP9 got into at some point.

 

Feel free to discuss this development plan below.



#3 boiydiego

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:03 AM

ladies and gentleman whe have a liftoff :D :whtflag:


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#4 unclewilly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

Been waiting for this thread. Can't wait

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
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#5 webslinger2203

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:19 AM

Mukuste, this is fantastic news. DX9 is awesome and now seeing 10 is being worked, I am officially a little kid in a candy store. Ha ha. I do have a question though, the vp10 ideas thread had alot of good input on features they wanted to see in vp10. Can you discuss what new feature you and the developers plan to add from the thread or which ideas you dont plan to add? Your efforts have truely been remarkable and appreciated. Thank you for everything you have done.

#6 fuzzel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:11 PM

We haven't discussed that yet. Some of the ideas are already realized or started like the new physics engine. The ball is a 3D ball with shader support. But to do the real fancy stuff like ambient occlusion, proper lighting with shadows and so on is only possible if the render pipeline is more flexibel. The ideas are all listed in the ideas thread and we can have a look at the list to see what can be implement if the basic framework is working.



#7 zany

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:46 PM

DAMN i look forward to this! :D



#8 unclewilly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:47 PM

Can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Really can't wait to play around with the new mesh ball.

I would imagine that it will help with the kicker ball cut in half issue

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
Monster Bash VP10 WIP https://dl.dropboxus... (vpx)WIP15.vpx

uw2.gif


#9 unclewilly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:14 PM

Are we gonna get test versions like with the dx9 port

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
Monster Bash VP10 WIP https://dl.dropboxus... (vpx)WIP15.vpx

uw2.gif


#10 fuzzel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:40 PM

Are we gonna get test versions like with the dx9 port

Sure I think we will post them here or find a better platform somewhere else. Be patient until we have enough stuff for a first public beta.

 

The mesh ball fixes the cut ball in half issue completely. One thing about the new ball: VP10 won't have a front/back ball decal anymore, only one decal texture will be supported in the future. The new decal texture is wrapped around the ball so if you use a decal texture in VP9 it will look a bit odd. The normal ball image can be used or you create a new sphere map and assign it as ball image.


Edited by fuzzel, 30 April 2014 - 01:45 PM.


#11 DreamTrap

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:44 PM

bloody hell dx9 is still new and dx10 is on the horizon already?! things are moving too quickly!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

no their not :8):


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#12 fuzzel

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

lol...the real fun is about to begin now :)



#13 unclewilly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:58 PM

bloody hell dx9 is still new and dx10 is on the horizon already?! things are moving too quickly!!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
no their not :8):


Not dx10.

Still dx9. But a vp with improved features and editor, I hope.

Really hoping for a wire guide or guide wall with width settings. Would save a tone of time building tables.

Sorry back to the discussion

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
Monster Bash VP10 WIP https://dl.dropboxus... (vpx)WIP15.vpx

uw2.gif


#14 unclewilly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:18 PM

Oh yeah.
Will that version check script also work in the current vp9.9?

Mb will only play in the dx9 version

"it will all be ok in the end, if it's not ok, it's not the end"
 
Monster Bash VP10 WIP https://dl.dropboxus... (vpx)WIP15.vpx

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#15 Sir Cheddar

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:59 PM

This sounds great! All of it!

 

Only one thing I want  to put in as a thought - it would be nice if VP could select the right VP version for a given table automatically if that version is available on the system.

I don't see any perfect solution for doing this, but here are a few half-assed suggestions:

 

1) Let the OS handle it with file extensions. Define the file extension as .vpx and .vpx_0 for vp10.0, .vpx and .vpx_1 for vp10.1 and so on. Let the open file dialog filter for both the generic .vpx and the version specific .vpx_X.

For this solution it would be great if there was a program, command line parameter or a preferences option that registers the extensions automatically for the user. After all its not like we have an shortage of extensions :)

 

2) Add a small launcher that reads the version information inside the .vpx and launches the right vp executable

 

3) Add a small launcher that selects the right vp executable by the folder structure. Lets say VPdir\Tables for generic, VPdir\Tables\v0 for vp10.0, etc


Edited by Sir Cheddar, 30 April 2014 - 04:01 PM.


#16 Practicedummy

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:16 PM

What I would suggest for the vpforums staff is to put in an extra option on the menu bar on the top of the website that says something like 'VP10 beta' to where we can click and get the latest version to check out. That way it will be easier to get it without having to scroll down severral pages to find the link. :D


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#17 arngrim

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:39 PM

Links are often copiedto the first post

#18 mukuste

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Mukuste, this is fantastic news. DX9 is awesome and now seeing 10 is being worked, I am officially a little kid in a candy store. Ha ha. I do have a question though, the vp10 ideas thread had alot of good input on features they wanted to see in vp10. Can you discuss what new feature you and the developers plan to add from the thread or which ideas you dont plan to add? Your efforts have truely been remarkable and appreciated. Thank you for everything you have done.

 

Much is still open... if someone wants to go through the VP10 ideas thread and collect all the stuff mentioned there, that would be a good start!

 

 

Oh yeah.
Will that version check script also work in the current vp9.9?

Mb will only play in the dx9 version

 

Yes, you can check for major and minor versions starting with VP 9.9.0. Problem is, if someone opens the table in an older VP9 version, those functions won't be defined and it will generate a much less descriptive error message. So as long as you are working in VP9, it's maybe better to stick to the old Table1.Version variable (Table1 obviously being the table name). This will return 9210 for 9.2.1 and 9900 for 9.9.0.
 



#19 DJRobX

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:47 PM

When is the light ordering hack going away? 

 

My concern is that we now have people who want to retrofit their old tables with new physics.   Once the light ordering hack goes away, that task becomes immensely more difficult for people who aren't table designers.    

 

I hate carrying baggage forward, but what a lot of people seem to want in the very short term is what they're already getting from your current physics test builds.  


Edited by DJRobX, 30 April 2014 - 09:50 PM.


#20 oooPLAYER1ooo

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:51 PM

Ok I'm going to get in early with requests.
What I would like is the ability to have vp send Udp text strings.
Ideally we have it output the table name via a Udp packet to a nominated ip and port on table load and when we exit table send a blank string or something.

Do this and I will make a cross platform companion app so people can view instruction cards, flyers whatever for tablets and desktops.
Really I already have pretty much done this but was getting fp launch to send the data via Hyperpin. I would rather vp itself do this

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