369 replies to this topic

[Noah Fentz]

What table will your team recreate?

[neoblood]

Hmm maybe something decently easy? Or something that hasn't been updated for a while? Independence Day might be fun to work on. I have the Gerhard and Crew table and it's decent but we could use a nice wide version ala Jpg-pins. Those wide tables are just so much fun. Wonder if there is some decent res stuff to make it out of? What do you other guys think?

[1up]

Hmm maybe something decently easy? Or something that hasn't been updated for a while?

i agree, something not too complicated to start with, but a table that we have access to alot of decent images for.

[Noah Fentz]

I uploaded some more resources of Independence Day, just so you could all have a look...

http://vpforums.org/...d...l&f_id=2260

WTiger already upped a stripped playfield, too...

http://vpforums.org/...d...l&f_id=2230

[wtiger]

Independence Day kind of scares me with all the ramps (including transparent ones) so I'm not sure I'd classify this as an easy one. I did upload a hi-res picture of a playfield, so we have that. The manual is available from he Internet Pinball Database. What I don't have is anything descent for the plastics (I see that Noah uploaded some resources today - thank you). What's available will probably work fine. Maybe we'd be able to get some help from someone who is better at ramps than I am.

The other thing that needs to be discussed is how everyone wants to approach this. One option would be to have an object resource table where we'd have some various playfield parts (posts, pegs, etc) that we can copy from and paste into our table. Instructions would be something like "make three copies of the T1 post and paste when on your table where the red arrows are". Anyone have any suggestions/ideas?

Edited by wtiger, 15 April 2009 - 04:14 AM.

[Noah Fentz]

I was hoping we could start the learning process by creating posts from scratch...

I already got some images of various posts for reference.









I think it would be a good learning process to do it all from the ground up.

What does everyone else think?

[neoblood]

Here's a video I found





I can model and render stuff like those posts "easy" in blender3d. Even do it with a fancy GI renderer to make it look naturally HDRI lighted and contain caustics. Maybe even a touch of subsurface scattering. It's up to you guys however you feel like doing it. If you give me any slack at all I'll go detail crazy on it so careful what you ask for lol

[Wizards_Hat]

Independence Day might be fun to work on. I have the Gerhard and Crew table and it's decent but we could use a nice wide version ala Jpg-pins. Those wide tables are just so much fun.

I agree that this table could do with an update - though I personally don't like the "wide" tables...feels like you're playing the thing with your chin on the lockbar...very bizarre view (imo) - but there is no way I can help anyone with anything graphics wise, so be my guest

Independence Day kind of scares me with all the ramps (including transparent ones) so I'm not sure I'd classify this as an easy one.

Unfortunately if we're going to recreate a 90's pin, then ramps, & probably transparent ones, it is going to have to be!

The other thing that needs to be discussed is how everyone wants to approach this. One option would be to have an object resource table where we'd have some various playfield parts (posts, pegs, etc) that we can copy from and paste into our table. Instructions would be something like "make three copies of the T1 post and paste when on your table where the red arrows are". Anyone have any suggestions/ideas?

I don't mind whatever way - I personally am not going to be creating the table at this end - there is no way I would have the time, but I am hoping I will be able to help with scripting.

Regards,
Dan.

[neoblood]

Well, if I understand table construction correctly (don't bet on it lol ) then we will need several different layers of textures for objects and transparent ramps etc. Plus the same objects at the same orientation under different lighting conditions to simulate global / diffuse lighting... so if there aren't any rendering people on this team I can say that probably wont be a problem for me. In theory lol.

I'll post a few examples of some techniques I use that might add some realism to the table. I'm only talking arty stuff because that's what I'm decent at, if someone else wants to do something different no objections from me.

Simple object with multiple lighting conditions and subsurface scattering...


Simple object glass refraction sphere


Glass reflection, refraction, caustics


An example of reflection, refraction caustics lit by a subsurface scattered shadelight


Pretexture example of Global illumination and HD vertex


Anyhow this is the kind of stuff and techniques I can use. If you guys want something I'll just need a simple drawing of the object from different axis and the color, material or texture you want it to be and we can do something with that.

[1up]

The other thing that needs to be discussed is how everyone wants to approach this. One option would be to have an object resource table where we'd have some various playfield parts (posts, pegs, etc) that we can copy from and paste into our table. Instructions would be something like "make three copies of the T1 post and paste when on your table where the red arrows are". Anyone have any suggestions/ideas?

i was hoping we do this more like homework lessons, where the mentor (wtiger) will give us (the students) set tasks to complete. then we all complete each task before we move onto the next lesson. that way we each get familar and learn in all aspects of building a table. even if we dont complete certain tasks at a (expert level), at least were familar in the steps involved and we can personally improve our techniques in our own time.

I was hoping we could start the learning process by creating posts from scratch...
I think it would be a good learning process to do it all from the ground up.
What does everyone else think?

i would like to create everything from scratch like noah mentioned, just a good learning curve for all (myself included), even though i know it'll do my head in sometimes


in regards to the table we pick... i'm easy with whatever we pick. so if it Independance day then thats fine.

anyway these are just my thoughts and i undestand this is a (group) workshop so majority vote counts.

so what does everyone ele think on table selection? independence day? i guess this is our first group descision before we even think of doing anthing else.

[neoblood]

I'm good with whatever you guys want (we are all too nice aren't we? 8 ). Are we building individual tables or are we making a group project out of it? There are a lot of good tables that the community would do good to have an upgrade on... No Fear is pretty cool. Judge Dredd is on the shortlist. Star Wars is also in need of an update IMHO. There are so many good ones from the 90's it doesn't really matter. I agree that no matter what table we pick there is a lot of detail and work involved from the 90's tables which is probably a good thing. Maybe we need a chat set up to communicate better.

[wtiger]

One other thing to discuss. Are we using VP8 or VP9? If we use VP9, the transparent ramps will be easier. If we use VP8, we will need to be a lot more creative. Also, are we all going to work on the graphics ourselves too? If so, do we all want to use the same program (like The Gimp) or something. I've never used it, but I wouldn't mind giving it a shot.

Do we want to set a time limit to decide on the table (say, by Sunday or something) and if no one comes up with any other suggestion we'll go with Independence Day?

[wtiger]

While I'm waiting for people to answer the above post, I thought I'd post an exercise/homework

I thought for our first exercise we will import a playfield image into the VP editor and set the proper table width for it. Once this is done, we will use it for the next exercise.

Start up VP and make a new table (File, New). Import the attached playfield image into the editor (Table, Image Manager, Import).
(Ref Pic 1)


We must tell VP to use this image for our playfied. Make sure the option are turned on (click on the options button on the left if not). Under Colors & Formatting, go to the Image section and click on the arrow to the right and select the image.

(Ref Pic 2)
Now we will use light objects to help adjust the table width so that the circles on our image will match the circles of the light objects. Click on the light tool and then click on the playfield image somewhere near a circle (I’d suggest using the circle towards the top center that has a square image around it). If you need to, use the magnify tool to zoom in a few times.

(Ref Pic 3)
Move the light object so it is centered on the circle from the image. Adjust the size of the object by changing it’s radius on the right from 50 to some other number until you come close to matching the circle from the image. You should notice that the circle from our playfield image is too wide (the height should pretty much match). We need to adjust the table width so circles in our image are truly circles and match the shape of our light object.

(Ref Pic 4)
You adjust the table width under the Physics section on the right side of the screen. If you don’t see this section, use the Selection tool to click on an area of your table where there aren’t any objects. The table will now be selected and you should see the Physics section. Change the current width from 1000 to some other smaller number. When you do this, your light object that you placed will need to be moved back into position.

Here’s your homework. Continue adjusting the table width until you believe it to be pretty close. Once you are done, post the number you came up with for the width.

Attached Files

•  Pic1.jpg   83.2KB   232 downloads
•  Pic2.jpg   42.31KB   236 downloads
•  Pic3.jpg   65.91KB   263 downloads
•  Pic4.jpg   65.88KB   248 downloads
•  playfield_for_workshop.jpg   37.25KB   289 downloads

[neoblood]

Thanks tiger, I'm good with Independence Day as long as the rest of you are. By the way I took a look at your Sapranos tutorial, you've done this before! lol Should be a fun ride!

[1up]

One other thing to discuss. Are we using VP8 or VP9? If we use VP9, the transparent ramps will be easier. If we use VP8, we will need to be a lot more creative. Also, are we all going to work on the graphics ourselves too? If so, do we all want to use the same program (like The Gimp) or something. I've never used it, but I wouldn't mind giving it a shot.

Do we want to set a time limit to decide on the table (say, by Sunday or something) and if no one comes up with any other suggestion we'll go with Independence Day?

i think VP9 is what we should all work with, as it has more options and i can at least make a 16:9 version after.
with the graphics... maybe we all give it a go and then post pics of what we've done and then we pick which we'll use?? i've only played with editing programs a little so i don't know how mine will come out, but i'll give it a go and maybe the members from the group with more experience in editing/graphics programs can give us a little guidance.

i've played around with photoshop a little but i'm happy to use gimp or any other, i guess that way were using all the same setting, options ect... it'll make it easier to help each other.

let's go independence day, we've got the playfield from yourself wtiger and the resourse pack from noah so that should be enough?? and we could do with a new and improved Independence day VP table.

Here’s your homework. Continue adjusting the table width until you believe it to be pretty close. Once you are done, post the number you came up with for the width.

done! i made the table width smaller, down to 890. that seemed to make all the lights complete circles. i attached pics of what i did.

Attached Files

•  Untitled_2.jpg   132.49KB   173 downloads
•  Untitled_1.jpg   120.89KB   139 downloads

[wtiger]

Good job, 1up! I think we should wait a few days for the rest of the group to get a chance to post and I'll play around with The Gimp. Note: The dimensions you've come up with will not be the final ones we use once we actually build our table. This was just for this exercise and the next one where we build some basic objects.

For the table, I'd say that we'll go with Indepencence Day and use VP9. What viewing angle does everyone want to use?

[neoblood]

I used 900 width.

Gimp is awesome, you'll like it. Especially if you use a pen. The only thing that's irritating sometimes is it doesn't quite have the shnazzy selection tools that the big money program has.

[Wizards_Hat]

Good job, 1up! I think we should wait a few days for the rest of the group to get a chance to post and I'll play around with The Gimp. Note: The dimensions you've come up with will not be the final ones we use once we actually build our table. This was just for this exercise and the next one where we build some basic objects.

For the table, I'd say that we'll go with Indepencence Day and use VP9. What viewing angle does everyone want to use?

Independence Day is fine by me.
VP9 is good too - I've no experience of using it, whereas I've plenty of experience with VP8, so I'm eager to learn what this version can do and how to utilise its' new properties

Erm..as for the assignment...I can't decide..I see it as right anyhwere between 885 & 890...how precise do we need to be with it?
(in vp8 5 units is 1/10 of a ball width - not hugely significant, but I'm sure it would have some impact over gameplay).

Regards,
Dan.

[wtiger]

...Erm..as for the assignment...I can't decide..I see it as right anyhwere between 885 & 890...how precise do we need to be with it?
(in vp8 5 units is 1/10 of a ball width - not hugely significant, but I'm sure it would have some impact over gameplay).

Good job Wizards_Hat. I don't think we need to be extremely precise at the moment. This right now is just a warm up exercise to play around with the editor just a bit. We will be using a different method (thanks Destruk) for our table size once we get into actually starting our table.

[faralos]

oh man am I lost already! ok Am I to download indendence day from here, then start to mod that one? or am I to start with a new table as Noah suggests? help please (I'll bet I'll be your biggest stumbling block )

woops just downloaded the table. Wtiger says to start the homework by using that table image in vp9 I must download vp9 I guess huh? that'd help a bit. so I will try to use this homework printout and see what happens once I get vp9 installed...

Edited by faralos, 18 April 2009 - 11:54 PM.