Jump to content




Photo
- - - - -

How to make future pinball fun


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 BigBoss

BigBoss

    Enthusiast

  • VP Dev Team
  • PipPipPip
  • 461 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Attack From Mars, Metallica, Theatre Of Magic, Shadow, Star Trek

Posted 19 February 2011 - 06:34 PM

So future pinball looks great. But looks arent everything. On most tables, it feels very unnatural. The ball just sort of floats around. The flipper shots are slow, delayed, it feels nothing like real pinball. In a cabinet, you want the closest thing to real pinball. Because of this, I have been ignoring most the future pinball tables. Up until now.

I spent a lot of time tweaking settings on future pinball tables. I think I have found some settings that help the situation a lot and actually make the game play more like pinball.

Obviously these settings aren't perfect for every machine, but they're a great starting point. I haven't touched any of the 1950-1980 series machine recreations or any EM type tables. These are all for the cool originals like Medieval Castle, Aliens etc. Most the flipper settings apply to the two lower flippers only. You will have to play on settings for the rest. I usually leave them alone.

1) Set table slope to 10. That's right, max this out. This helps get rid of some of the floating and generally speeds things up.
2) Flippers:
a) Start Angle 115 (left) / 245 (right) and Swing 55 - This is crucial to get the flipper to shoot shots in the right location as compared to the real pins. I generally see settings around 238 / 122 and 52. These just don't cut it. You have to fix this angle because the oblique setting that's in visual pin does not exist in future pin.
b) Set elasticity to intermediate. With default hard, the ball is too flat. It's difficult to flipper pass even. With intermediate, you can flipper pass and get a little bounce. With soft, you get so much bounce that when the ball is just rolling on the flipper it starts to bounce in a very unnatural manner.
c) Set strength to max on both flippers. Without this, the ball never gets moving and you never get out of that floating state. The game feels like pinball played in a dream or like running in water. Setting strength to max and table slope to max helps this tremendously.

Now this doesn't work for every game. For example, on Dark Quest, you have to reduce the flipper strength by about 2 or the ball moves unnaturally fast and the game loses its fun. Play around with it and try these settings out. Have fun, and let's see what discussion this starts.

#2 settingsons

settingsons

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 947 posts
  • Location:Switzerland

  • Flag: Switzerland

  • Favorite Pinball: Terminator 2 and many EM machines



Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:33 PM

Thanks BigBoss for sharing the findings - anything to make the feel more real is worth trying and I am pretty certain it can be achieved as there are certain tables in FP that do play well.. I will certainly will give these a go (although won't be for a bit because I have just started a cab build today and that is keeping me busy for a bit smile.gif).

Cheers

Vic

#3 blur

blur

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 1,482 posts

  • Flag: Croatia

  • Favorite Pinball: The Amazing Spiderman



Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:42 PM

If you open fp exe with notepad++ you'll find one textual xml file with many, many physics options, like ball mass, gravity and so on. But we can't discuss it here since it's considered hacking.

#4 Rawd

Rawd

    Pinball Wizard

  • VIP
  • 3,932 posts
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

  • Flag: Canada

  • Favorite Pinball: Triple Strike



Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE (blur @ Feb 19 2011, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you open fp exe with notepad++ you'll find one textual xml file with many, many physics options, like ball mass, gravity and so on. But we can't discuss it here since it's considered hacking.


You used your outside voice! smile.gif

rawd3.gif

 


#5 scott-Detroit Pinball

scott-Detroit Pinball

    Enthusiast

  • Platinum Supporter
  • 116 posts
  • Location:detroit

  • Flag: United States of America

  • Favorite Pinball: banzai run

Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:25 AM

QUOTE (Rawd @ Feb 19 2011, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (blur @ Feb 19 2011, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you open fp exe with notepad++ you'll find one textual xml file with many, many physics options, like ball mass, gravity and so on. But we can't discuss it here since it's considered hacking.


You used your outside voice! smile.gif



My question is, and I am trying to dig future pinball... how can I tweak the settings, so that once I find the sweet spot on the flipper- how can I get a consistant shot, There is a level of randomness it seems built into Future Pinball that prevents you from nailing the same shot back to back.....
Is there anything that can be done.....??

Scott
Detroit Pinball

Some of my Games- Past & Present
http://www.flickr.co...itpinball/sets/
Scott
Detroit Pinball

#6 Rawd

Rawd

    Pinball Wizard

  • VIP
  • 3,932 posts
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

  • Flag: Canada

  • Favorite Pinball: Triple Strike



Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:36 AM

QUOTE (scott-Detroit Pinball @ Feb 19 2011, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Rawd @ Feb 19 2011, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (blur @ Feb 19 2011, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you open fp exe with notepad++ you'll find one textual xml file with many, many physics options, like ball mass, gravity and so on. But we can't discuss it here since it's considered hacking.


You used your outside voice! smile.gif



My question is, and I am trying to dig future pinball... how can I tweak the settings, so that once I find the sweet spot on the flipper- how can I get a consistant shot, There is a level of randomness it seems built into Future Pinball that prevents you from nailing the same shot back to back.....
Is there anything that can be done.....??

Scott
Detroit Pinball


I have spent an enormous amount of time with FP and it's settings. In my personal opinion it is impossible to get anything resembling real life flippers and physics. Other opinions vary. There are some fun tables for FP, but I think the engine needs a complete physics overhaul.

rawd3.gif

 


#7 settingsons

settingsons

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 947 posts
  • Location:Switzerland

  • Flag: Switzerland

  • Favorite Pinball: Terminator 2 and many EM machines



Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:08 AM

QUOTE (Rawd @ Feb 20 2011, 02:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have spent an enormous amount of time with FP and it's settings. In my personal opinion it is impossible to get anything resembling real life flippers and physics. Other opinions vary. There are some fun tables for FP, but I think the engine needs a complete physics overhaul.


Ask me a couple of months ago and I would have said FP physics were fine. Having finally played a real pinball table about 3 weeks ago after several years of not seeing one (Medievel Madness), I realised that although FP tables look great and are fun, the VP engine certainly is much more realistic. Having said VP does rely on good settings, and when correct are fantastically close to real pinball. Also for FP there are some tables that are much better than others. Also I think the slower EM machines seem to suit FP better - and they really look damn good!

Edited by settingsons, 20 February 2011 - 02:09 AM.


#8 Rawd

Rawd

    Pinball Wizard

  • VIP
  • 3,932 posts
  • Location:Edmonton, Canada

  • Flag: Canada

  • Favorite Pinball: Triple Strike



Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:13 AM

QUOTE (settingsons @ Feb 19 2011, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also I think the slower EM machines seem to suit FP better - and they really look damn good!


I agree.

rawd3.gif

 


#9 anthias

anthias

    Enthusiast

  • VIP
  • 274 posts

  • Flag: Australia

  • Favorite Pinball: Flame Reaper: First Responders Unit



Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:45 AM

*facepalm*. You know what? forget I said anything. I'm so over this atm. BigBoss - I sugesst you check other factors in your system to resolve those issues as I find it hard to believe its because of FP being somehow bad, as FP simply doesnt do what you describe in my experience.

Edited by anthias, 20 February 2011 - 05:56 AM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PO - My Baby// My MMORPG project - Post Exodus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
suspended earth . com - site devoted to my science fiction novels
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in the game room:
"Harlem Globetrotters World Tour" (bally, 1978)
Williams Defender converted MAME cab,
"After Burner" seated cab,
Sega TITAN system cab running "Warriors of the Lost Dynasty"
Largescreen JAMMA cab running "Gemini Wings"

#10 Jerry Winter

Jerry Winter

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: Germany

  • Favorite Pinball: PSYCHO WILD WEST

Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:21 PM

QUOTE (BigBoss @ Feb 19 2011, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So future pinball looks great. But looks arent everything. On most tables, it feels very unnatural. The ball just sort of floats around. The flipper shots are slow, delayed, it feels nothing like real pinball. In a cabinet, you want the closest thing to real pinball. Because of this, I have been ignoring most the future pinball tables. Up until now.

I spent a lot of time tweaking settings on future pinball tables. I think I have found some settings that help the situation a lot and actually make the game play more like pinball.

Obviously these settings aren't perfect for every machine, but they're a great starting point. I haven't touched any of the 1950-1980 series machine recreations or any EM type tables. These are all for the cool originals like Medieval Castle, Aliens etc. Most the flipper settings apply to the two lower flippers only. You will have to play on settings for the rest. I usually leave them alone.

1) Set table slope to 10. That's right, max this out. This helps get rid of some of the floating and generally speeds things up.
2) Flippers:
a) Start Angle 115 (left) / 245 (right) and Swing 55 - This is crucial to get the flipper to shoot shots in the right location as compared to the real pins. I generally see settings around 238 / 122 and 52. These just don't cut it. You have to fix this angle because the oblique setting that's in visual pin does not exist in future pin.
b) Set elasticity to intermediate. With default hard, the ball is too flat. It's difficult to flipper pass even. With intermediate, you can flipper pass and get a little bounce. With soft, you get so much bounce that when the ball is just rolling on the flipper it starts to bounce in a very unnatural manner.
c) Set strength to max on both flippers. Without this, the ball never gets moving and you never get out of that floating state. The game feels like pinball played in a dream or like running in water. Setting strength to max and table slope to max helps this tremendously.

Now this doesn't work for every game. For example, on Dark Quest, you have to reduce the flipper strength by about 2 or the ball moves unnaturally fast and the game loses its fun. Play around with it and try these settings out. Have fun, and let's see what discussion this starts.




@BigBoss

What you wrote sounds like this: I've found a solution that makes me able cooking 20 meals of different kind using only one recipe.
Just play our table "Psycho Wild West" as it is and then change the values you mentioned. I bet all of my money
that the table will be unplayable from now on. The same goes for "Billion Dollar Gameshow" too.
I spent alot of hours for tweaking the layout so all targets, kickers and ramps are reachable as wanted by me.
I.e. flippers have different angles and strenght and are set to hard... that's not just mess around withouth plan.
Fact is: FP physic is not the best one and a very well done layout-tuning is the only way to lessen or avoid some physically issues
... nevertheless some unsolvable problems will always be left.
Believe me: it is nearly impossible to create a pefect table (regarding physic) and hardly not using your suggestion.

My two cents
Jerry




Tables I have created in cooperation with Sebek74 and Slash2084: BILLION DOLLAR GAMESHOW, PSYCHO WILD WEST.
WIP: Who knows? ;-)

#11 blur

blur

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 1,482 posts

  • Flag: Croatia

  • Favorite Pinball: The Amazing Spiderman



Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:44 PM

jerry in wild west, arcaderender mode (full screen rotated) when ball goes down the drain, new one won't come up.

what could be the reason for this?
it's not happening on desktop version.


#12 Jerry Winter

Jerry Winter

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: Germany

  • Favorite Pinball: PSYCHO WILD WEST

Posted 21 February 2011 - 08:28 AM

QUOTE (blur @ Feb 21 2011, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
jerry in wild west, arcaderender mode (full screen rotated) when ball goes down the drain, new one won't come up.

what could be the reason for this?
it's not happening on desktop version.



@blur

What do you mean exactly? I.e. which ball (of 3 or 5)? The last one, the first one? Ball saver active or not?


Jerry
Tables I have created in cooperation with Sebek74 and Slash2084: BILLION DOLLAR GAMESHOW, PSYCHO WILD WEST.
WIP: Who knows? ;-)

#13 blur

blur

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 1,482 posts

  • Flag: Croatia

  • Favorite Pinball: The Amazing Spiderman



Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:17 AM

every ball
in arcade render mode i can play only one ball on wild west table
the ball will not come out to plunger after it goes down the drain

ball saver can be active or not, ball still won't come out to plunger

Edited by blur, 21 February 2011 - 10:18 AM.


#14 Jerry Winter

Jerry Winter

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: Germany

  • Favorite Pinball: PSYCHO WILD WEST

Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE (blur @ Feb 21 2011, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
every ball
in arcade render mode i can play only one ball on wild west table
the ball will not come out to plunger after it goes down the drain

ball saver can be active or not, ball still won't come out to plunger



Thanks for info, we'll start research.
Tables I have created in cooperation with Sebek74 and Slash2084: BILLION DOLLAR GAMESHOW, PSYCHO WILD WEST.
WIP: Who knows? ;-)

#15 blur

blur

    Pinball Fan

  • VIP
  • 1,482 posts

  • Flag: Croatia

  • Favorite Pinball: The Amazing Spiderman



Posted 21 February 2011 - 11:40 PM

great, tnx!


#16 BigBoss

BigBoss

    Enthusiast

  • VP Dev Team
  • PipPipPip
  • 461 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Attack From Mars, Metallica, Theatre Of Magic, Shadow, Star Trek

Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:40 AM

QUOTE (Jerry Winter @ Feb 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What you wrote sounds like this: I've found a solution that makes me able cooking 20 meals of different kind using only one recipe.
Just play our table "Psycho Wild West" as it is and then change the values you mentioned. I bet all of my money
that the table will be unplayable from now on. The same goes for "Billion Dollar Gameshow" too.
I spent alot of hours for tweaking the layout so all targets, kickers and ramps are reachable as wanted by me.
I.e. flippers have different angles and strenght and are set to hard... that's not just mess around withouth plan.
Fact is: FP physic is not the best one and a very well done layout-tuning is the only way to lessen or avoid some physically issues
... nevertheless some unsolvable problems will always be left.
Believe me: it is nearly impossible to create a pefect table (regarding physic) and hardly not using your suggestion.

Yep. You're right. It is definitely not an optimal solution nor does it work great for every table. But anything that removes that annoying floating ball is an improvement. With that, it doesnt even feel like pinball.

In wildwest, I had the following tweaks:
Table slope to 10, flipper angles and swing as I stated but strength 2 less than max. I cant remember if I adjusted plunger power or rubber power on the slingshots. I have the slingshot rubbers set to 2nd from max strength.

BTW, Wild West is a fantastic table. I'm going to play it more and see if there are some issues.


#17 Jerry Winter

Jerry Winter

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: Germany

  • Favorite Pinball: PSYCHO WILD WEST

Posted 22 February 2011 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE (BigBoss @ Feb 22 2011, 03:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Jerry Winter @ Feb 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What you wrote sounds like this: I've found a solution that makes me able cooking 20 meals of different kind using only one recipe.
Just play our table "Psycho Wild West" as it is and then change the values you mentioned. I bet all of my money
that the table will be unplayable from now on. The same goes for "Billion Dollar Gameshow" too.
I spent alot of hours for tweaking the layout so all targets, kickers and ramps are reachable as wanted by me.
I.e. flippers have different angles and strenght and are set to hard... that's not just mess around withouth plan.
Fact is: FP physic is not the best one and a very well done layout-tuning is the only way to lessen or avoid some physically issues
... nevertheless some unsolvable problems will always be left.
Believe me: it is nearly impossible to create a pefect table (regarding physic) and hardly not using your suggestion.

Yep. You're right. It is definitely not an optimal solution nor does it work great for every table. But anything that removes that annoying floating ball is an improvement. With that, it doesnt even feel like pinball.

In wildwest, I had the following tweaks:
Table slope to 10, flipper angles and swing as I stated but strength 2 less than max. I cant remember if I adjusted plunger power or rubber power on the slingshots. I have the slingshot rubbers set to 2nd from max strength.

BTW, Wild West is a fantastic table. I'm going to play it more and see if there are some issues.



Well, have you ever played WW longer than 10 minutes? Once I tested table slope at 10 then the ball was falling down from the "Jail Bridge" again and again.
Changing the Flipper strenght and angle (swing) brings the result that almost all Targets, Ramps and Kickers are not so good reachable like before.
Also the Slingshot power is not choosed without "think about" by me. If both of them have the same values and are set too strong then
the ball bounces higher and higher until he goes into the outlane.
... btw, it's an old trick by me to set Slingers to differnt strenght (if necessary) to avoid that bad ball behavior. wink.gif

The best would be you play WW as it is for a long while so you can get and play all modes. Then play it with your modded values.
...and if you can say WW runs better after your changings then I did something wrong.


Jerry


Tables I have created in cooperation with Sebek74 and Slash2084: BILLION DOLLAR GAMESHOW, PSYCHO WILD WEST.
WIP: Who knows? ;-)

#18 BigBoss

BigBoss

    Enthusiast

  • VP Dev Team
  • PipPipPip
  • 461 posts

  • Flag: ---------

  • Favorite Pinball: Attack From Mars, Metallica, Theatre Of Magic, Shadow, Star Trek

Posted 23 February 2011 - 02:12 AM

QUOTE (Jerry Winter @ Feb 22 2011, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, have you ever played WW longer than 10 minutes? Once I tested table slope at 10 then the ball was falling down from the "Jail Bridge" again and again.
Changing the Flipper strenght and angle (swing) brings the result that almost all Targets, Ramps and Kickers are not so good reachable like before.
Also the Slingshot power is not choosed without "think about" by me. If both of them have the same values and are set too strong then
the ball bounces higher and higher until he goes into the outlane.
... btw, it's an old trick by me to set Slingers to differnt strenght (if necessary) to avoid that bad ball behavior.

The best would be you play WW as it is for a long while so you can get and play all modes. Then play it with your modded values.
...and if you can say WW runs better after your changings then I did something wrong.


So WW is my absolute favorite future pinball game. I have just put over 2 hours into it. I'm not great at it, but I did score 106 million, scored 21 on blackjack, gotten into multiball mode, and have gotten night duel mode several times. You are the designer of this game? If so, I cant stress how amazing you are. This game looks like a high quality commercial table that could appear in pinball fx2 or such.

Anyways, I have done a bit more to it to get through some of the issues you mentioned. My take on any future pinball game is that I first fix the slope and the flipper settings. Then I tweak the rest of the table to "make it work". The problem otherwise are that the future pinball physics are just too unbelievable to make the game fun. I have 6 real pinball tables and play this on my cabinet in the same room. It has to be close.

I can't tell you everything I've done to make this particular table work but I believe it is working pretty well. I believe I did do some of these things: lengthen rails near outlanes to make them harder to get into, change slingshot values, change plunger strength, flipper and slope settings. Now, I'm no table designer, and there may be some mode that I am unable to achieve with these settings (but I don't believe there is). All I can do is offer the modified table to you to test and compare. I doubt that it matters that I'm playing in a cabinet or not, but maybe it does. If you want to check out my changes and point out the flaws you're welcomed to it.

Furthermore, I am in no way trying to offend any table designers. You guys are amazing and do things I could never do. My problems are with future pinball, itself. Not your tables.

#19 Jerry Winter

Jerry Winter

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Germany

  • Flag: Germany

  • Favorite Pinball: PSYCHO WILD WEST

Posted 23 February 2011 - 11:10 AM

BigBoss

Q: ...You are the designer of this game? If so, I cant stress how amazing you are. This game looks like a high quality commercial table that could appear in pinball fx2 or such.

A: Thanks, but the honor is not only mine. As you can see at Sebek's homepage: http://futurepinball.mm.com.pl/

The Basic-Layout is made by Slash2084.
Sebek74 is the Script Wizard, Music Burnisher and Light Manager.
My part of work is all regarding Gfx, Overlays, 3D Models and enhanced layout.


<<< ...future pinball physics are just too unbelievable to make the game fun. >>>

Confirmed... sadly but true.


<<<... All I can do is offer the modified table to you to test and compare. >>>

Just upload your version somewhere I can download it and give me the link.


<<< I doubt that it matters that I'm playing in a cabinet or not, but maybe it does. >>>

I'm almost sure it does... see the question by "blur" mentioned above.


Jerry

Tables I have created in cooperation with Sebek74 and Slash2084: BILLION DOLLAR GAMESHOW, PSYCHO WILD WEST.
WIP: Who knows? ;-)

#20 Sebek74

Sebek74

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Location:Lodz, Poland

  • Flag: Poland

  • Favorite Pinball: Pinball Dreams: Ignition

Posted 24 February 2011 - 09:11 AM

QUOTE (blur @ Feb 21 2011, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
every ball
in arcade render mode i can play only one ball on wild west table
the ball will not come out to plunger after it goes down the drain

ball saver can be active or not, ball still won't come out to plunger


Hi
I've confirmed the problem. I haven't resolved that yet, but I'm going to fix that. I believe that is the problem of DMD display because the problem you mentioned appears only in arcade render mode when ONLY ONE MONITOR is used. In that configuration I don't see the DMD at all - only the surrounding golden frame remains. I've also tried to run that in arcade render mode using 2-monitor mode - the game plays ok to me. I believe that is some FP engine issue but I will try to make some workaround. I will try to investigate that more, I have no much time right now but you can expect the solution (if possible) in 1-2 weeks.
Sebek74
Visit http://futurepinball.mm.com.pl/ for my tables download: Ignition, Beat-Box, Nightmare, Billion Dollar Gameshow, Wild West
http://futurepinball...om.pl/Gfx2DmdF/ for Gfx2DmdF font conversion
http://picasaweb.google.com/sebek74 - personal photo gallery




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users