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#41 Rawd

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:36 AM

QUOTE (faralos @ Feb 23 2011, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yes the alpha ramps were explained to me I am forgetting a lot of things nowadays due to pain and lack of sleep sorry for repeating myself... sorry for repeat... well you know


All good Faralos. smile.gif Get better soon man.



 


#42 destruk

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 04:17 AM

QUOTE (faralos @ Feb 23 2011, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yes the alpha ramps were explained to me I am forgetting a lot of things nowadays due to pain and lack of sleep sorry for repeating myself... sorry for repeat... well you know
so will newer tables made in 9.1.1 work with 9.09 or would we have to tweak the ramps and such to get them to show up correctly in the older versions?


Most likely no tables made with 9.10 or 9.1.1 will work with 9.0.9 since they require the freeimage.dll to work.
From the release notes for 9.1.1 -
Important:
Tables made with 9.1.x may be incompatible with older versions due to the new features, but tables made with 9.0.x can be loaded and played in 9.1.x.

Build a fire, vipers love the heat.


#43 FDSystems

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE (destruk @ Feb 24 2011, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (faralos @ Feb 23 2011, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yes the alpha ramps were explained to me I am forgetting a lot of things nowadays due to pain and lack of sleep sorry for repeating myself... sorry for repeat... well you know
so will newer tables made in 9.1.1 work with 9.09 or would we have to tweak the ramps and such to get them to show up correctly in the older versions?


Most likely no tables made with 9.10 or 9.1.1 will work with 9.0.9 since they require the freeimage.dll to work.
From the release notes for 9.1.1 -
Important:
Tables made with 9.1.x may be incompatible with older versions due to the new features, but tables made with 9.0.x can be loaded and played in 9.1.x.


I´m using VP-Man.
Does the above means that I can simply replace my good old VP908 with the new 911 & that I will be able to play ALL my VP9 tables, including the ones that I have to play with HR Render OFF because of my crappy low end ATI card?
hmm.gif think.gif

If yes, a huge thank you to all the dev team & anybody else involved in this new release!

If no, a huge thank you to all the dev team & anybody else involved in this new release! wink.gif

otvclap.gif otvclap.gif otvclap.gif otvclap.gif
From Brasil. Updated version of 1234fd



#44 epthegeek

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:40 PM

I'm not getting transparency in the ramps with vp 9.11.

I'm guessing this is a "ha ha, you're screwed ATI user" situation - but just in case, is there anything special you need to do to make the alpha ramps work? I have HR checked in the video options. Tried playing around with various settings - ramps are still solid for me. I'm running catalyst 10.11 which has been 100% fine for the pre-alpha ramps versions of vp9.

If I'm boned, I'm boned. But I figured I'd ask just in case.

#45 epthegeek

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 09:11 PM

FWIW I worked this out. I had the main monitor set to 16-bit instead of 32-bit, that's why it wasn't working. Once I set it to 32 bit and fired up VP, the ramps are transparent just like they should be.

#46 Sabbat

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 09:19 PM

glad you figured it out epthegeek smile.gif
If you have a widescreen 16:9 monitor and want to play your VP9 desktop tables without them being stretched, check out This Link

#47 rob046

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:09 AM

Question about the alpha slider. I understand the alpha ramps & what they do, just not totally sure what that slider does other than increase performance by as explain in original release thread "Ramps are displayed with less surfaces then".
Less surfaces? can somebody give me or point me to a better explanation on the "less surfaces" thing?
I took screenshots of a big alpha ramp at slider all the way left, right, & center. & visually it all looked the same, & the ball had the same amount of transparency underneath them.
So really I'm just wondering what the visual drawback is of cranking the slider left.

#48 lettuce

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 02:36 PM

Is UVP intergration still going to be happening in a future update??

#49 destruk

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (lettuce @ Feb 26 2011, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is UVP intergration still going to be happening in a future update??


UVP has a full copy of visual pinmame inside - so probably not.

QUOTE (rob046 @ Feb 25 2011, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Question about the alpha slider. I understand the alpha ramps & what they do, just not totally sure what that slider does other than increase performance by as explain in original release thread "Ramps are displayed with less surfaces then".
Less surfaces? can somebody give me or point me to a better explanation on the "less surfaces" thing?
I took screenshots of a big alpha ramp at slider all the way left, right, & center. & visually it all looked the same, & the ball had the same amount of transparency underneath them.
So really I'm just wondering what the visual drawback is of cranking the slider left.


Cupid could give you a better answer - I think he heavily optimized the slider so that the far left takes fewer system resources by drawing the ramp in fewer pieces. This results in a ramp that isn't as perfectly mathematically 'smoothed' as a ramp with more parts would be (the slider pushed to the right). You might try making a ramp that is 500 vp units wide at the bottom and 60 units wide at the top, with a bunch of curves in it to see a difference.

Build a fire, vipers love the heat.


#50 cupid

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE (destruk @ Feb 26 2011, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (rob046 @ Feb 25 2011, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Question about the alpha slider. I understand the alpha ramps & what they do, just not totally sure what that slider does other than increase performance by as explain in original release thread "Ramps are displayed with less surfaces then".
Less surfaces? can somebody give me or point me to a better explanation on the "less surfaces" thing?
I took screenshots of a big alpha ramp at slider all the way left, right, & center. & visually it all looked the same, & the ball had the same amount of transparency underneath them.
So really I'm just wondering what the visual drawback is of cranking the slider left.


Cupid could give you a better answer - I think he heavily optimized the slider so that the far left takes fewer system resources by drawing the ramp in fewer pieces. This results in a ramp that isn't as perfectly mathematically 'smoothed' as a ramp with more parts would be (the slider pushed to the right). You might try making a ramp that is 500 vp units wide at the bottom and 60 units wide at the top, with a bunch of curves in it to see a difference.

Destruk is right.
Consider an easy ramp with 4 control points and no borders, where control points not in a line and the ramp has a legth of over 400 units.
With the slider to the left, the ramp has 12 triangles, 4 real control points and 3 virtual control points.
With the slider to the right, the ramp will have over 1000 triangles (maybe much more or some less, but MANY more than 12), 4 real control points and many virtual control points.
If the ramp has sides, multiply that values by 3.

You can only see this at the left and right edge of the ramp. It will have edges instead of curves, if you set the alpha ramp accuracy low.

Between the control points, a spline curve is calculated.


shows the difference between linear and spline interpolation.

The more the slider is set to left, the more the ramp it is linear interpolated and need less triagles at runtime to display. Slider to the right interpolates more and more with a furmula called Catmul-Rom described here: http://www.mvps.org/...ticles/catmull/ .

3d Programs like Blender, maya, 3ds-max have better functions for this, and professional games always have low-poly Objects. In VP, this is not possible, since we have to calculate the points in 3d space in real time or during the compilation of the table (when you hit play).

Now why don't you see any difference? JP did set some more control points as needed. Of course the ramp has more triangles then, but like this, the ramp is optimized already for the slider beeing all the way to the left. In curves, he did set some more points; on long straigt lines, he did set less.

Cupid

Edited by cupid, 26 February 2011 - 08:40 PM.

The world is devided into people who think they are right.

#51 rob046

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 09:14 PM

Yeah that sounds about right, its all about the smoothness of curved ramps (the sharper the curve the more noticeable it is when the slider goes left). It's not exactly a dealbreaker though, I'd say this barely visible (sometimes not noticeable) eyesore is well worth the performance gained of having the slider halfway or all left if need be.
I hate to even call that an eyesore. Just having alpha ramps at all is AMAZING. & I really appreciate it since I've been using VP for over 7 years now, with THIS being the 1 visual drawback of VP that nobody could ever properly find a workaround for.
In fact it ended up being a big reason why I ended up being drawn more to playing & working with older tables while losing interest with many ramped tables.

Hopefully this feature eventually gets optimized & can be individualized with front ends like vp-man & others.
JP's gameshow even makes my rig shutter a bit with slider all the way right, having a hyperthreaded i7930 at 3.5ghz+ and an HD 5870, and 6gb ddr3. Sliding it halfway smooths gameplay out quite a bit though.
Thank you VP devs for this feature!